The Dance of Equality, Technology and Spirituality

10 years ago someone said to me, “These days you may not even know your next door neighbor, but you exchange emails with your buddy in South Africa twice a week.”  I looked out the window at the house next to mine – barely knew the neighbors – and yes I was sitting there sending emails to someone in some far-off country.

Every week I get on conference calls and say hi to everyone and barely think twice about the fact that I’ve got 17 people from Texas, four from Perth, one from Amsterdam, one in Alaska, one in Lebanon.

Ever heard Thomas Friedman’s “McDonalds theory of world peace”? He observes that with only one exception, no two countries with a McDonalds have ever gone to war with each other.

Can you imagine, say, the US going to war with Australia? Think of all the emails the senators and congressmen would get: “Hey, stop trying to kill my customers! And by the way, here’s a list of 115 blogs from people who are trapped in the Siege of Sydney right now!”

The world is truly a strange and wonderful place. Just before I went on a trip, I loaded the first season of The Dukes of Hazzard on my video iPod so my 10 year old son would have something to watch while we trucked down Interstate 80.

That TV show ran in 1979 – the year that *I* was 10 years old. I said to Laura, “Who would’ve thought that 25 years later you’d be able to download an entire season of the Dukes of Hazzard onto a device that’s half the size of a pack of cigarettes, and our kids would watch it in the car with headphones and a 2″ screen?” We shake our heads in amazement.

OK, so what does all this have to do with spirituality?

Equality and technology… They have everything to do with spirituality.

Let’s start with equality.

The United States Declaration of Independence makes a world-shattering declaration that transformed the modern world:

“We hold these things to be self-evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, among which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

In his book “Democracy in America” (1835) Alexis de Tocqueville carefully traces this statement and its idea of equality backward through history and lands at Galatians 3:28, the words of St. Paul:

“In Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free. All are equal in Christ Jesus.”

Before Paul said this, no one had ever made such a bold and sweeping statement. No one. Not the Jews or Babylonians, not the Egyptians, not the Greeks, not the Chinese. The concept of equality came first from Paul.

This idea got planted in western civilization and began to grow and develop, little by little dismantling slave trade, sowing the seeds for democracy and spurring technological and political progress. Tocqueville says that from 1100 AD to the present, every major development led to more equality, not less. The Magna Carta. The invention of the horseshoe. The invention of the gun and the post office and the printing press and democracy.

If you live in a democracy and you’re thankful for the ability to vote, if you’re thankful that people generally consider you and themselves to be just as good as anybody else, then thank Paul. And his Rabbi, Jesus.

Because – despite what the Declaration says – equality really is NOT self evident. At least it wasn’t to any of the ancient world prior to 2000 years ago. On the surface, we’re all different. Some are stronger. Some are smarter. Some have more money. Some are politically connected. Some are more savvy.

And some people get the scraps.

You have no principle to guide you but winners and losers. Which, divorced from any overriding sense of equality or individual dignity, is a cruel master.

But when Paul said this, he was declaring that there is an underlying *spiritual* reality, that yours and my true identity doesn’t come from accomplishments or money or power but from our Heavenly Father. That once we know that true identity we’re no longer slaves to money and power and accomplishments and the ‘natural’ order of things.

If you’re thankful that Western Civilization today considers all people to be intrinsically equal, be thankful that a young couple in Bethlehem gave birth to a baby who was to become the most loved, most hated, most argued about, most written about, most influential person in the history of the world. One who taught that the greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. One in whom there is no male or female, no Jew nor Greek, no slave nor free.

So then how about technology?

Science itself is, at its core, a presumption of discoverable underlying order. A belief, an assumption (which cannot be proven in advance, by the way) that when an apple falls from a tree it does so because of some law of nature that caused it to do so. That there was a string of cause and effect that can be traced back to explain why this happened.

The apple did not fall from the tree because, say, Zeus was having a snit with Apollo and that’s why there was the lightning storm which is why there was a wind that caused the apple to swing back and forth and fall from the tree…. no, it happened for rational discoverable reasons. That God made a world which could operate consistently on its own without Him constantly making corrections from the outside.

So far as I can tell, the inspiration for this belief first came from Wisdom of Solomon 11:21:

“Thou hast ordered all things in measure and number and weight.”

(The Protestants omitted that book, but our Catholic friends thankfully left it in.)

If a scientist does not presume that there is a rational reason for what he is about to investigate, there is nothing for him to investigate at all. Belief in rationality comes from belief in a rational God. A God who wants us to discover His universe. For whom such discovery is an act of worship.

If you read the history of science over the last 500 years, the only reason science succeeded in the West – after getting started but failing in Greece, Rome, China, Egypt and in the Arab world – is that Christian theology understood God to have created the universe to operate according to fixed discoverable laws.  Theology made that prediction, then people had a philosophical basis for having a scientific method.

In his fascinating book “The Victory of Reason” historian Rodney Stark further explains that the forward march of technology began after the fall of the Roman Empire and has marched steadily forward ever since. Equality implied that slavery was wrong, so people had to develop technology in order to free their slaves and still get the work done.

So… part of the inspiration for inventions like water wheels was a belief in dignity and freedom and the rights of the individual.
Technology is supposed to empower people, not enslave them. Because, as Paul said, in Christ, all are equal.

If you trace these ideas back through history, equality and technology and even iPods and Democracy have everything to do with our very beliefs about the universe and about God. And yes, even Jesus.

Case in point: it’s politically incorrect to say “Merry Christmas” cuz it’s too religious. Instead you get a tepid, watered down “Happy Holidays.”

It’s because Christ is offensive. When a guy smashes his thumb with a hammer, he doesn’t say “Krishna” or “Buddha,” he says Jesus Christ. Because that’s the most loaded, most powerful word in the English language.

There’s no name you can invoke that’s more powerful than the Son of God.

~~~

Do you know what the most important invention in the history of the world was?

It wasn’t the computer.  And it sure wasn’t the light bulb or the telephone.  (Or even the electronic voting machine.)
It was the printing press.

In 1445, Johannes Gutenberg invented the world’s first movable type printing press.  He didn’t know it, but he was unleashing a revolution that continues to this day.  Even the mighty Internet in the 21st century is just an extension of Gutenberg’s original, revolutionary machine.

The first book he printed was the Bible.  And that led to controversy, too, because Luther translated it into German, the people’s language, instead of Latin, the lingo of the religious elite.

Suddenly, ordinary folks could not only afford a copy, but they could read it for themselves instead of getting some guy’s slanted interpretation.  Soon the cat was out of the bag–there were copies scattered all over Europe.

It’s no coincidence that the scientific enlightenment and industrial revolution began in earnest within 50 years of this.  Not that it wasn’t already underway (it had already gathered considerable momentum) but now that ordinary folks had access to knowledge and the freedom to pursue it, the possibilities were limitless.

The printing press took the handcuffs off of knowledge and spirituality, and the world has never been the same.  Equal access to knowledge empowered people everywhere, and it was only natural that the Renaissance, and in time, democracy too would follow.

Every year at Christmas we celebrate the person who inspired these revolutions. Jesus’ teachings were radical and scandalous. He claimed to be the Son of God. He said he would rise from the dead, and according to the historical accounts, he did. He stepped into the world and split time in half: BC and AD. And his words still resonate throughout the earth today.

Still rolls the stone from the grave.

In the spirit of what Jesus taught us, I hope that you’ll use our 21st century printing press, the Internet, to not enslave but empower individuals. To bring more equality, to make the world a better place for your fellow man.

Thanks for reading.

Perry Marshall

305 Responses to “The Dance of Equality, Technology and Spirituality”

  1. Pootna D'souza says:

    Declaration of Independence

    By

    Christologists

    THE REFLECTING MIND is filled with astonishment upon reviewing the history of the rise of the United States of North America, when it perceives that dogmatic theology has no foundation in any part of the Declaration of Independence or Constition for the structure which it would raise and has so often tried to erect, within and upon the government. We are astonished because those documents were formulated and that government established at a time when dogmatism of one kind or another had supreme sway. Although the Puritans and others had come to America for religious freedom, they were still very dogmatic and tenacious of their peculiar theories and creed; so that if we found in this fundamental law much about religion and religious establishments, we would not be surprised. But in vain do we look for it, in vain did the supporters of the iron church attempt to lay the needed corner stone, and today America rejoices at it.

    The nullification of these efforts made by bigotry in 1776 was due to those rare, far-sighted Thinkers who were wise enough to remain unnamed in a scoffing, sceptical world, who had the foresight and the courage to speak the Truth in the face of bigotry and prejudice. They offered their wise, mature thought during the drafting of the Declaration and the drawing of the Constitution, and that is why no foothold is to be found for these blatant Christians who desire to inject a personal God into the constitution.

    In the declaration, from which freedom sprang, “nature and nature’s god” are referred to. In the second and third paragraphs the natural rights of man are specified, such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The king is spoken of as being unworthy to be “the head of a civilised nation,” nothing being said as to whether he was the head, or worthy to be, of a Christian one.

    In appealing to their British brethren, the declaration says the appeal is “made to their native justice and magnanimity.” All reference to religion and Christianity or God’s commands are left out. This was for the very good reason that for centuries religion had battled against progress, against justice, against magnanimity, against the rights of man. And in the concluding sentence the signers mutually pledge each other to its support ignoring all appeals to God.

    In the constitution of 1787 the preamble declares that the instrument was made for union, for justice, for tranquility and defence, the general good and liberty. Art. vi says no religious test as a qualification for office shall ever be required, and the first Amendment prohibits an establishment of religion or restraint of its free exercise.

    In the “Age of Reason” Thomas Paine writes: “I saw, or at least I thought I saw, a vast scene opening itself to the world in the affairs of America; and it appeared to me that unless the Americans changed the plan they were then pursuing and declared themselves independent, they would not only involve themselves in a multiplicity of new difficulties, but shut out the prospect that was then offering itself to mankind through their means.” Further on he says: “There are two distinct classes of thoughts; those produced by reflection, and those that bolt into the mind of their own accord. I have always made it a rule to treat these voluntary visitors with civility, and it is from them I have acquired all the knowledge that I have.”

    Thomas Paine stood alone with the lamp of truth in his hand amidst others who in “times that tried men’s souls” quaked with fear, —saw a “vast scene opening itself to Mankind in the affairs of America.” The result was the Declaration, the Constitution for America. And as if to give point to these words and to his declaration that he saw this vast scene opening itself, this new order of ages, the design of the reverse side of the U.S. great seal is a pyramid whose capstone is removed with the blazing eye in a triangle over it dazzling the sight, above it are the words “the heavens approve,” while underneath appears the startling sentence “a new order of ages.”

    Paine, with Washington, Jefferson, and other brave freemasons dared to found a free Government in the West which could be pure from the dross of dogmatism.

  2. trevor macey says:

    Hi

    Read the paper you sent much of which i agree with. One litle point about equality the verse in galatians in NOT talking about human equality indeed jesus said you will lways have the poor with ou but it refers to our equlity IN CHRIST ie that Christian brotherhood is an equality. We all all members of the body of Christ when we believe and our salvation and eternal destiny is secured. That is very different from saying everyone is equal and has equal rights as whilst the American Constitution made this declaration thereality was NOT that all were equal, indeed the black section of american society were still truggling for equality in the 1960s and I don not think that it was ever the intention of the founding fathers to make immoral activities like promiscuity and homosexuality to have such ‘rights’under the law. There must be enforceable agreed moral standards that allow the privilege not the right to equality.

  3. Dear Perry,
    I have a great regard for you for stongly believing in your faith but your faith should lead you to explore the many more paths that lead to the Almighty.Evey faith has its flaws.Come above your way of bibilical faith and try to peep the several windows small,big or gigantic that GOD provided to see HIM in many angles.Dont try to identify flaws in othe religions,try to find GOD.Jesus learnt this with the Himalayan masters in Kashmir.Through scientific Gnana you realized GOD but now seek a master practice communion with GOD and that will be end for your debating.No one can realize HIM through debating which only spoils your truth seeking mind.I profoundly thank you for your essays,no more words for you.You must at once find your GURU and experience the heavenly Bliss and I am sure millions walk along with you.May The Father In The Heaven Bless you.
    Regards,
    Gunneswara Rao Satyavolu.

  4. Anupamji such people of the type of Mr.Marshall will never understand HINDUISM and its great wisdom not because they are stupid but they wish to remain stupid.This gentleman has not read a single Hindu writing and claims that it preaches discrimination based on class.And on the other hand he tries to apologise to you.It is indeed his misfortune to have been born into a faith system that makes him wear blinkers and not to be able to “open his mind” .It is best to not dialogue with such people – pointless as you have put it perfectly !
    And now because of his bleeding heart he has downloaded a photo of a young man and boy breaking stones to show that we exploit children.What is the connection between Hindu caste system and child labour?Such social problems have been caused byhorrendous ‘drain’ of our resources- both material and intellectual by those who colonised us.The colossal damage caused cannot be reversed with the flick of a hand /or magic wand.With massive funding from Christian fundamental organisations from all corners of the world and using blatant lies people come to India and convert gullible populations.
    And yet this man professes and says that he has not even heard of these “NEFARIOUS ACTIVITIES” taking place!He must indeed be living in a Christian cocooned world.Further, he has not replied to my last mail!It is indeed clear that he cannot face the truth and give replies.TAMAAMSHUD !

    • josef zack says:

      I do apologize but did I read this presentation correctly? did you state that white devil slave master British colonialists formed the chaste system and forced it upon the people of India? the democracy with the largest population in the world?

      so a brahmin is equal to an “untouchable” I never visited India but I do believe credible reports from people who have traveled to that country. They told me, to a person, that religious ceremonies, etc wer done in one of the 1000 dialects extant within India. The British Colonialists wrote these ceremonies and invented the Chaste system in one thousand different dialects? WOW Wee! THese British colonialists were very powerful! I guess you might need a couple of centuries to recover from such powerful evil colonial slave masters. dl please allow me to extend to you my very best regards, Sir. also my most deep consolations to the nearly irreparable damage done to your people by the hateful British Colonialists. FT

      • GyanP says:

        Josefzack,
        Don’t underestimate the ability of Britishers to ruin India of that time.

        There is an authoritative study on the caste system of India, and the author is a Britisher himself, he essentially says the same thing as Vijay above. The link to the book on Amazon is given below. The Book is “Castes of Mind: Colonialism and the Making of Modern India” by Nicholas B. Dirks:

        http://www.amazon.com/Castes-Mind-Colonialism-Making-Modern/dp/0691088950

        India is plagued with many problems true – but being an Indian I cannot forget that before falling prey to invaders it was the greatest of great countries. In India people are well aware of their own problems and there is lots and lots of thinking and working upon that is going on. Suffice it to say here – that wherever the education has reached the ‘casteism’ has lost its relevance. It is practiced in its negative form only in backward areas, as Perry also observed. But mind you that is a one sided and inaccurate view. Caste has nothing to do with slavery.

        But it is in the vested interests of the present political parties to let people remain backward. They then nurture the caste feelings of people – even whip up the emotions – to get their votes.

        On the other hand, Christian missionaries exploit it for their own ‘harvest’ – they take it as an opportunity to enter the turf and come with their ‘stories’ about equality in Christianity. ‘Stories’ because even amongst Christians in India, the caste system is followed. There are even Churches for the ‘backward Christians’. ‘Higher caste Christians’ don’t marry their children with ‘backward caste Christians’. It is a social problem, not religious.

        Surprised? This is the ground reality, my friend! That’s why my fellow countrymen above get angry. I can understand their anger.

        This is our country. We will solve our problems. Outside help is not required. Wherever we require it we ask for it. Unsolicited help is not at all required. We are quite capable of solving our problems, and we are progressing, no doubt!

        As far as problems are concerned you have got your own set of problems, which Christianity has not been able to solve, so how do you promise others that it will solve their problems for them?

        Following is a small list of your problems: your time will be better spent in solving them , before your society breaks down completely, if it has not already done so-

        – Broken families,
        – No conjugal love and fidelity,
        – no emotional bonding between parents and children,
        – too much concern with sex, sex, and sex, even the Church is not spared (sorry, but it is there!),
        – commercialization of sex,
        – demeaning of female body in media, cinema, advertising, everywhere, in fact.

        These are your problems, besides many others, why not concentrate on them?

        One last thing.

        The evils of missionary activities, what harm it has done, and is still doing to the Indian people, is well documented in a recent book. Please read it. The book is “ORISSA in the CROSSFIRE- Kandhamal Burning” by Brannon Parker. It’s free downloadable version is also available on the link below-

        http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/orissa-in-the-crossfire-kandhamal-burning/6046402

        It is a true account by an American journalist of how Christian missionaries have been exploiting the poverty of India, dividing its society, pitting people against each other, and causing irreversible pain and misery to its backward people, and destabilizing the society in unimaginable ways.

        Following link – “The conversions At Gun Point” will also interest you-

        http://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/05/30/conversion-at-gun-point/

        I hope it will force you and Perry to give very, very serious thoughts to the missionary activities of the Church.

        Thanks and best wishes to all!

    • anupam says:

      You are very right vijayaji. These guys are a bunch of christian zealots who are under the misconception that every thing wise started with christ. there were a number of greater men born in india prior to jesus. the very concept of atma professed in india since times immemorial underlines equality amongst all beings. now what to debate with perry n his likes? they are such bigots n myopic in their presentation.Poor perry has not read the rig ved or upanishads. how is he qualified to start a debate like this. these guys are low minds vijayji.We should certainly rebuke such wayward fundamentalists.to shri chandramouli with regards.
      anupam

      • perrymarshall says:

        I didn’t say everything wise started with Christ. I said the idea of equality came from Christianity first.

        And I asked you to provide a statement concerning the equality of people from the Hindu Scriptures that is anywhere near as bold as Paul saying “In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, Male nor Female, slave nor free – all are equal in Christ Jesus.”

        Do the Hindu scriptures have such a statement?

        • Praveen says:

          Mr. Perry,

          Kindly learn Sanskrit and other ancient India languages and read our scriptures to know for yourself. And don’t take such a high moral ground, what with all the news about the deeds of Bishops tumbling out of the Churches and Vatican, including in India.

          Here, I am sorry to say, you are throwing a stone in the dark, hoping that it will hit some thing! Not very good reasoning, at least not the kind I hope to hear from a person possessing such analytical mind as yours!

          In the end I will say, nothing is perfect, and nobody should claim that he or his religion is superior to others.

          That is what we all Hindus believe. We do not go out of our way to show others that their faith is inferior.

          “Vasudhaiv kutumbkam” – meaning, the entire earth is a family, that is what our scriptures say.

          Merely writing some thing in a book is one thing, practicing it is altogether different: and Christianity has much explaining to do given its history of slavery.

          When you are trying to convert people of other religions, it only means that you consider them to be inferior to you. That is the real fact – and not what somebody wrote in a book a few thousand years ago!

          We respect all religions, including yours.

          Regards,

  5. anupam says:

    perry. your answer clarifies how little u know about india and its history. u know u r a half filled pitcher making noise. u are blinded by your myopic religious beliefs and that makes u see bad in every other faith.a 7 year old breaking rock is becos of poverty and not becos of caste. there are also ministers who have risen from ordinary backgrounds in india. and your defence of british colonialists who plundered india for 300 years smacks of typical white mans racism. even elisabeth is adorned by looted jewelery from our country.

    This is where u have gone wrong horribly- caste system is based on functions carried out by communities and slavery has been unknown to india, unlike the west.slavery was the hallmark of romans which was further enhanced by europeans who made slaves out of innocent africans n asians and made human trafficking a flourishing enterprise. in india selling of human beings was never ever practised.only an outright ignorent would equate caste system to slavery. your fault is that u are looking at india through christian eyes. bible also discriminates against blacks.what do u have to say about that? and please dont be another weber.
    if chistians were so technical n knowlageable how come bible mentions earth as center of the universe. all inventions are not christian.

    india is the first country to preach n practise non violence in the history of mankind. and look at yourselves americans, british, europeans who bomb innocent iraqis,defenceless afghans day n night. if christianity had taught you equality and tolerence then you guys would not have fought wars amongst yourselves-i.e WW1 N WW2. so it will be better for you to keep your houses in order than criticising india or finding fault with other faiths and falsely portraying chritianity as a superior faith.

    i belong to a caste called indian.

  6. Perry;
    Thank you for the best Christmas gift I have received this year! Your e-mail was thoughtful and provocative. I will truly treasure it now and throughout the comming year. God Bless you and your family, and a very Merry Christmas and Happy Blessed New Year to you all.

    David Alukonis

    • perrymarshall says:

      David,

      Thank you. To others who have complex questions in the blog queue, I’ll respond as I’m able. Happy New Year to all!

      Perry

  7. Am still awaiting your reply to my last mail in case you have any answers Mr.Perry !
    PS – Have you read Dickens where he describes Englad and the state of the poor children and poverty of the people and the tyranny of the rich classes !
    Oliver Twist is a classic example of how people lived not very long ago.
    And you download a photo showing children working – at least they are not drawn into a life of crime like Fagin.
    Mr.Perry get your facts right before ‘casting stones at others ‘ like it has been said in the bible.
    People in glass houses should not throw stones !

  8. http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/what-caste-actually-was-like/

    MUST READ FOR THOSE WHO REALLY WISH TO KNOW WHAT HINDU CASTE SYSTEM WAS AND WHAT THE BRITISH DID !

    ENJOY MR.PERRY AND OTHERS OF HIS ILK!

  9. Paula Hendricks says:

    Paul did help usher in equality but he got the lead from the example of Jesus. Jesus did not select his twelve from the temple but from every day people. He used the grassroots method and the ground swell worked quite well. Granted he did use Paul who was from an elite socioeconomic group, but he had to knock him off his high horse first (smile).

  10. josef zack says:

    I request an answer to an important question (to me). WHat is your take on this movement within many “Christian” churches called the “Alpha Course” ??

    I still belong to the old school Lutheran CHurch (Missouri Synod) which began this program about two years ago.

    I no longer attend this church faithfully but send the tax deductible contribution several times yearly.

    My alarm bell starting ringing when the Pastor INSISTED that attendance of this “Course” was mandatory, in order to remain a member of my church. Thanks. Not meaning in introduce controversy, only interested in getting a third party answer to a tricky topic. jz

    • perrymarshall says:

      I helped teach the alpha course once or twice and I thought it was pretty cool. If I were you I wouldn’t see this as something to get spooked about.

  11. Joseph Udoka says:

    Hi, Perry,
    thanks for all your effort to reach God’s people with His good message for them, thanks.
    You said you did not have an answer to the little question why suffering prospers in the earth, but you went on to answer the question.
    The world left it’s maker who has our blueprint, and is still having all our spare parts for little joy ride that has turned sour yet we will not go back home, even though our Father is making all effort to have us back.
    All the trouble you see in this world is approved by man after satan presented it to us in the garden, he is still bringing new ones and man still agrees. Look carefully and compare the life of true believers to the life others, not that they do not know but most of them think they are smarter than God and satan, they try everyday to steal the cake, eat it and evade the consequences. And after seeing what happens to others they won’t learn still, man is very funny, most of us.

    Tell your friends the truth, all true believers will inherit the kingdom of God but if you want to be free of the troubles while you are still here, fight satan, he is the organizer of it all.
    Tell them about satan’s strategies, about demonization, about the power of God to practically save from all troubles, that alone is true enlightenment.
    Thanks again

    • Ralph Charles says:

      I have no doubt about the existence of God as per your attempts to prove God exists. God is really the intelligence behind all these things that could not have come from pure chance or evolution. My problem though is what made you think that this GOD is the same God that is now worshipped by organized religions. Aren’t they different. I want to believe in God but not the teachings of these religions that are mostly man-made and are imperfect.

      Ralph

      • perrymarshall says:

        Ralph,

        This entire website is devoted to the dilemmas you describe – I encourage you to read every article.

      • Dylan De Leskie says:

        Unfortunately, once mankind outgrew the childish view that God is just a magnified man, some of us went to the other extreme and believed God was an invisible force, like gravity or electricity. But this is not better than a subtle form of atheism.

        In the Church of Rome, we can’t just decide for ourselves what is good and what is imperfect etc. Who are we to do such a thing? The Magisterium that Christ left (Mt. 16:18) is the final standard that decides what goes.

        • Tony Francis says:

          There are three paths from which we can decide the one to follow.
          1) explore the universe on our own, going which ever way we feel like, without any guidance from the maker of the universe. This is like operating a car without reading its operator’s manual. This can be fun, and full of adventure and surprises, but we should be prepared to face the consequences. We can also end up in fatal accidents, or We may end up using the car in more or better ways than the manufacturer ever dreamed of.

          2) Read the instructions given by the manufacturer, and follow the instructions religiously. There will be no surprises.

          3) Read the instructions, and use your intelligence to decide when you can go outside the limits set by the manufacturer, (Take calculated risks). Some manufacturers actually encourage their customers to take calculated risks and give them feedback, for improving their products, and their applications.

          But do you think God is a manufacturer who need our feed back, or are our prayers really feed back for improvements?

      • From my point of view and study,and ,by far am I of any authority on any beliefs..just wanting to know what is going on . I am in agreement with all 3 listed below.,
        Joseph Udoka,Ralph Charles, Pootna V…
        Having been brought up fairly intense in Catholicism, after 59 years of that propaganda,I come to realize that,,the God they want us to believe in, cant be the Creator of this magnificent Universe and his son Jesus Christ as I tried so hard to believe.
        YES,there is a GOD of Creation,A Supreme Being,whose rational is superior to human’s,that man will never reach…I also belive that Christ came to UNITE ! Not divide humanity as those sprouting their own denomination having caused so much confusion throughout history,,. The last time I tallied denominations in my county of 51,350 people, there are 136+ denominations…and ,how many more throughtout the world ?
        They all cant be “The One and Only “?
        One book I am reading, called “Windswept House” by Malachi Martin is an eye opener as to who is running the Vatican and its occupiers ?, google the following,it speaks for itself…Im inclined to believe what Father Malachi expressed in his novel,for,it was the only way he could publish it,,yet, the enemy still brutally killed him in his New York apartment…on the eve of publishing the sequel to W S H. Now, tell me who is seating in the Vatican ????
        http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican44.htm

        “Just as we cannot understand a man’s behavior without knowingwhat influences have contributed to form his character from his earliest days”,–so we cannot understand our present institutions,(which are simply the expressions of our social behavior) unless we learn how they have come to be what they are !from, A History of our Country,1950.

        Seems that every one has an opinion based on their studies and convictions,and want the rest of us accept it.
        Where is the REAL THRUTH ?

        There is much more to it,,but ,for all intent, I stop here.

        In good will for peace and harmony in God’s Creation.

      • Chris Moolman says:

        Hi Ralph,
        You hit the nail on it’s head with your statement “is the same God that is now worshipped by organized religions”. In Revelation God calls His people to come out of the system of man made religions.

        Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

        God refers to His church as ” her” His bride. Organized religions have man’s word and God’s Word mixed together and is spiritual fornication that is why they are called harlots , living untrue to their vows.

        The first organized church is the Roman Catholic Church and she is called the whore and she has many daughters. All other denominations came out of her but still have some of the same believes as her. The biggest lie they all have is the trinity believe. Just have a close look at the following two verses and see were the trinity came from and why it is a lie.

        Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

        Note what Jesus said here. Baptize them in the NAME (singular) of God. Then Peter who had the revelation of who Jesus was said.

        Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

        He had the revelation that Jesus was God and that was God’s NAME in that dispensation.

        If you want to know more about God’s names for His name chance again.

        Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
        Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

        Reply the this post and I will explain more about it.

        Regards
        Chris

    • darrell evans says:

      “The Truth“

      There is what people want to hear,

      There is what people want to see,

      There is what people want to believe,

      There is everything else,

      Then there’s the “Truth”.

      And thank You for that,

      Lord Jesus!

    • Bernie Peach says:

      Your correct Joseph and this man Perry is summed up in the following verses. Romans 1:18-32

      God’s Wrath Against Mankind

      18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

      21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

      24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
      Furthermore what he speaks of is the views expressed by what is Biblicaly referred to as the Harlot Church and her daughters. namely the Roman Catholic Church which is and has always been a pagan idol worshiping false christian church. This man knows nothing of God in the slightest for his mind is enmity against the living God.
      The God of the Bible clearly states. Luke 11: 5-10.
      And lead us not into temptation.d’ ”

      5 Then he said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend, and he goes to him at midnight and says, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6 because a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have nothing to set before him.’

      7 “Then the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children are with me in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his friend, yet because of the man’s boldnesse he will get up and give him as much as he needs.

      9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

      11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks forf a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!” Cheers Bernie

  12. Pootna V. says:

    WE DID NOT LEAVE the Christian faith because of the inherent problems of faith per se, or because we came to realize that the Bible was a human book, or that Christianity was a human religion. All that is true—but it was not what dismantled our acceptance of the Christian myth. We were wondering at an unrelated reason: the problem of suffering in the world.

    At some point in time we found that the myths no longer made sense to us, no longer resonated with us, no longer informed the way we looked at the world. We came to a place where we could no longer see how—even if viewed mythically—the central beliefs were in any sense “true” for us given the oppressive and powerful reality of human suffering in the world.

    We realize that a historical understanding of the Bible does not necessarily lead to agnosticism. We say it because there are a lot of other people—specially evangelical—for whom this would be news.

    If the findings of historical criticism are right, then some kind of theological claims are certainly to be judged as inadequate and wrong-headed. It would be impossible to argue that the Bible is a unified whole, inerrant in all its parts, inspired by God in every way. It can’t be that. There are too many divergencies, discrepancies, contradictions; too many alternative ways of looking at the same issue, alternatives that often are at odds with one another. The Bible is not a unity, it is a massive plurality. God did not write the Bible, people did. Those who wrote these works were not inspired in the sense that God somehow guided them to write what they wrote.

    There are many views in the Bible. Each of these views was written in a specific historical and cultural context and was completely shaped by the context within which it was written. None of these views can be removed from its original context, transferred to a different context, such as the twenty-first century, and be expected to communicate an inerrant revelation to us today. But since there are so many different messages in the Bible, often about the same subject, the reader can evaluate the appropriateness of this message or that, and see what relevance it may have for life in the present. Some messages will be more appropriate for certain contexts than others. And readers of the Bible should not be afraid to proclaim one message instead of another.

    We hope that everyone will agree that Jesus’ teaching as it relates to children (“Let the little children come unto me”) provides a more useful guide than the teaching of Psalm 137 (“Blessed is he who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rocks”). Similarly, some Biblical views of women are superior to others. And so the apostle Paul’s attitude about women is that they could be and should be leaders of the Christian communities—as evidenced by the fact that in his own communities there were women who were church organizers, deacons, and even apostles (Romans 16). That attitude is much better than the one inserted by a later scribe into Paul’s letters of 1 Corinthians, which claims that women should always be silent in the church ( 1 Corinthians 14:35-36), or the one forged under Paul’s name in the letter of 1 Timothy, which insists that women remain silent, submissive, and pregnant ( 1 Timothy 2:11-15).

    In thinking about which parts of the Bible have something to say in the modern context, it is important to recall the historical view that the biblical authors were all living in a different world from ours and reflected the assumptions and beliefs of people in their world. For example, the idea that “Jesus is coming back” is built on that above us, in the sky, over the clouds, is a space where God lives, and that Jesus has gone up there to live with Him. He ascended bodily and he is coming, bodily, back down. No one any longer thinks that above the clouds is a place where God and Jesus live. Above the clouds is more of the atmosphere, and above that is space, and beyond that are billions of stars—and that’s just our own galaxy. If the very notion that Jesus is coming back down assumes that there is an “up’—what does one do with that idea in a universe such as ours where there is, literally, no up and down, except in relation to where you happen to be standing at the moment? You obviously need to translate the idea into some kind of modern idiom for it to make sense. Or, put another way, you need to remythologise the myth of Jesus’ return. Otherwise you are forced to accept not only the idea that Jesus is coming back (still waiting after 2010 years) but the cosmology on which it is based.

    So too with all the Bible’s teachings—about women, same-sex relations, capital punishment, war, wealth, slavery, disease, about everything.

    Some people may think that it is a dangerous attitude to take toward the Bible, to pick and choose what you want to accept and throw everything else out. Our view is that everyone already picks and chooses what they want to accept in the Bible (even, that is, after they have engaged in the difficult act of interpretation). The most egregious instances of this can be found among people who claim not to be picking and chosing.

    People need to use their intelligence to evaluate what they find to be true and untrue in the Bible. This is how we need to live life generally. Everything we hear and see we need to evaluate—whether the inspiring writings of the Bible or the inspiring writings of Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, or George Eliot, of Gandhi, Desmond Tutu, or the Dalai Lama.

    There are many people in our world who actually believe in the Bible. We do not belittle anyone who continues to cherish the Bible as an inspired text, but in addition to reading the Bible devotionally there is a value in reading it historically. To be sure, a historical reading can show many of the shortcomings of the Bible—discrepancies, contradictions, faulty claims, impossible statements and harmful ideologies. But a historical reading can open up entirely new vistas in our understanding of the Bible and its multifarious messages.

  13. Anupamji- your response has been extremely just and admirable and what an apt answer you have given to the ‘ulterior-ly motivated’ question of Mr.Perry asking you about your caste.My regards to you.
    We are INDIANS and WE INDIAN- HINDUS even go further to include ‘such specimens as these’ as fellow-human beings along with us !!!
    How dare he ask such a ‘discriminatory ‘ question ?????
    And everything you say about such ’empty headed zealots’ is true to the hilt!

    Mr.Perry Marshall
    Your question to Sri Anupam as to HINDUISM having scriptures stating the equality of humans is so hypocritical,sanctimonious and duplicitous !
    Have you ever heard the name of SRI SRI ADISANKARA ?
    And do you know ADVAITA ???And then as Sri Anupam has commented- have you heard of the Vedas and Upanishads? Leave alone reading these texts will you even be able to pronounce these hallowed names ???
    READ (if you are able to )and then try opening your mouth to pass judgement on SANATANA DHARMA .
    Actually it is futile to even engage in conversation with the likes of you!

    And now to another ‘thick-headed compatriot’ of yours -Josef Zack- who thinks he is trying to be very clever by talking ‘innocent’!!!How dumb can anyone get ???
    He doesn’t know the difference between ‘caste and chaste’ and he is trying to comprehend the magnificence of HINDUISM !!!There is a saying in every regional language of India (and that demonstrates the equal wisdom of the people at large) which means ‘casting pearls before swine’!Enough of pearls have been cast (not caste and neither chaste ) and let us hope that perhaps somewhere along the line such people will see some light !!!

    • Lucien Chin says:

      Vijaya Chandramouli mixes reason with sentiment, even though it’s more sentiment that has the upperhand in her statement. She tackles the player, not the ball, to coin a soccer phrase, which unfailingly will force the referee to draw a red card, meaning the player has to leave the playing field!:-) Read (if you are able to) is a case in point. “…it is futile to even engage in conversation with the likes of you” is clearly another. Offending and condescending, assuming superiority over the other, the very quality Perry Marshall tried to pinpoint, in fact the hallmark of the caste system. Reason, analyze, synthesize, but don’t get angry! To be sure, even so Hinduism too has its beauty! And: we still love you, Vijaya!

      • Thanks for the analysis of my psyche .
        However, you are wrong when you say my comments are condescending,offending and assuming superiority .To call a spade a spade is not anger .And I am indeed not the meek one to show my other cheek !
        Perry Marshall demonstrated both in words and pictures a very unfair and negative view of HINDUISM without any understanding .
        I felt it right and imperative to to speak out .
        With good will towards one and all !

  14. Bill Davison says:

    As the human mind is fundamentally prone to the generation of illusions, we must try to visualize in a realistic manner, the birth & ramose nature of Religiosity. Everyone is infected with an imaginative ‘spiritual’ tendency, sentimentally induced, that is nothing more than the natural wonderment of our existence & surroundings.

    Elemental reasoning must be applied to give all ‘fantasial’ thought a true perspective.

    ‘Heavenly’ visions shouldn’t be allowed to sabotage the prevalent common sense & research needed to counteract Life’s ongoing problems. Unrealistic ‘Beliefs’, a cause of so much mayhem & mortality of past & present, are all very basic Man-made creations – – – devious proclamations of a false & tedious nature, incessantly filling shallow minds with absurd religious dogma.

    Unease can result in the mind having a very distorted view of reality, with an urge to look skywards for help. A reasonably healthy state of mind is essential to keep ‘figmentary’ Gods & ‘Heavenly’ thoughts at bay.

    It’s all too apparent that religious ‘Faiths’ are nothing but pure HUMBUG, blessed with existence by Impostors & their largely naive followers.

    At this time in our evolution, anything to do with Religiosity should only be regarded as a prime subject for amusement. No need to play mind games around this jungle of utter nonsense! Sheer transcendental tripe!

    Nature instructs all of Life to reproduce; to what end we just don’t know & it’s pretty certain that we never will. We are infinitely short of the necessary knowledge to form a valid judgement!

  15. Nina Ganci says:

    Thanks for a very powerful letter. Really enjoyed it.
    Could I ask your permission to publish it on my webpage?

  16. Kevin Noakes says:

    Without irritation there is no progress. With Hate there is no progress. Suffering is a necessary component of progessive change; lessons learned, knowledge gained.

  17. Ruby Fuller says:

    Hello again,
    Perry i know that this request is off topic, but i,m hoping you will explain the teachings of the book of revelations.
    Thank You So very much.
    Ruby
    P.S. i,m so happy to be on your mailing list. I don,t know how i started reveiving your literature. I believe it came through prayer for guidance. God Bless You.

  18. chuck kinsey says:

    June 2008 I received a decline on a life insurance application and was told to see a physician immediately as the blood tests indicated a likelihood of cancer present. My wife immediately sent an e-mail for prayer to Silent Unity, the folks who publish the Daily Word little monthly booklets. (100,000 + in the prayer circle) I started going to church with the intent of healing. Except for visiting cathedrals in Europe on vacations I had not been to church in 40 years. I had a biopsy and got the results July 7, 2008. Cancer…Edenocarcinoma. I counselled with Oncologists, Radiation Oncologists and Surgeons. Before I had any medical treatment of any kind I experienced a healing. I had a second biopsy after blood tests showed major differences and the only way to check if I was truly healed was to get many tissue sample. Results came in March 5 2009. No malignant tissue whatsoever. Blood tests normal.

    I am a week or so from 1 year anniversary. I am going in for the blood tests and if you are interested I will let you know if I did experience a miracle or not.

    The six physicians are totally blown away at this point and are waiting for the results. (Just so you know…I did do the tests at 3, 6, and 9 months, at my wife’s insistance, and all the numbers were in the normal range each time so I am very optimistic.)

    May God Bless you and each of your readers,
    Chuck

    My Physician at Kaiser Permanente scheduled me for a second

  19. Martin Ward says:

    So Bill Davison knows that God does not exist and the Bible is mythological nonsense and presumably by implication Christians and theists are gullible idiots. Boy, I am so pleased I read Bill’s post as I have been pondering and intellectually searching this fundamental question for years reading the thoughts of theists and atheists and balancing the views of great intellects. I always considered myself as an ‘agnostic’ in the broad sense i.e. someone who is not convinced but is so gobsmacked by nature’s complexity, conscious beings, DNA, man who transcends all lesser animals, unimaginably complex systems and processes. A planetary system like our solar system of dead planets some frozen wastes at mega minus zero temperatures others furnaces of flowing plasma, except one, the Earth. The Earth from a space station is a beautiful and lush place with a thin opalescent atmosphere that nurtures mind blowing complex biology. Thanks Bill my search is over, your powerful reasoning has convinced me God does not exist.

    • Anthony Waters says:

      To; Martin Ward, did Bill Davidson really say that God does not exist? I think Mr. Davidson really is talking about religion versus God and man’s vision of it, or several different groups of men’s visions of religions, or something like that. I think that God did not make one religion, ever, only man did. God cannot talk, did you know this? Man can though, oh I know that it has been said before that God talks through man, mankind is God’s voice, hence the scriptures. Of course this is pure conjecture and always will be, this is what is so fascinating about this topic. The scriptures are basically unprovable, it is always a circular discussion. How about other religious scriptures, thay are as vivid in their beholder’s minds as the Christian one. It is as if one religion is saying, God is my friend, not your friend, God wants to listen to me first! I am God’s most important child and next are the people who believe as I do. Every religion thinks this, it is kind of child like also, isn’t it? Why is man more important than say the moose and deer and every other animal or plant that is on the earth? I will tell you why man is more important, it is because man says so, that is why, and man writes books to prove it. The other animals are at a disadvatage aren’t they? Really there are only two numbers in the world, in the universe, “0′ and “1”. This is called the binary code. Examples: yes & no; up & down; left & right; light & dark, right & wrong, negative & positive, male & female, positive magnetic attraction & negative magnetic repellance etc. This list goes on forever, every computer functions because of the binary code. Medical discoveries, scientific discoveries about the universe are being found every day because of the binary code. Have you ever thoght of God & Satan? Again the binary code is in play here, right & wrong comes to mind first. The scriptures were a great way to try to explain to people in the day how things worked at that time. The writers of the scriptures then had no idea of what we now know, so the bibles of the past times seemed as logical as any way of determining what was going on at that time. Scriptures were also a way of codifying some sort of law and order, the ancients knew that most people were followers and needed something to live for and to live by and it worked! Well for a while anyway, otherwise how can it be explained why there are so many conflicting Christian Religions out there? Then there are the other major ancient religions which all deem themselves to be correct. But back to the conflicting Christian Religions, why the big differences? Man is the reason why, man is the reason behind religions and their differences, not God. Don’t be too hard on Mr. Davidson, he is not any more wrong or right than anyone else here, none of us really know the whole story and we never will. Best Regards and stay polite to everyone, we may then learn a bit more… P.S, God sure likes the Canadian Olympic Hockey Teams the best, doesn’t he? Or is it “0” & “1”, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose even at Hockey. Then there are the next winter Olympics to win or lose, oh that darn binary code again! CanadaNorth

      • Martin Ward says:

        Anthony, I read Mr Davison’s post as a denunciation of religion and therefore of believers. Perhaps he would like to clarify.
        I try to simplify my view as much as I can in a jungle of scientific and philosophical thought. My problem is that although I find the arguments for the existence of God more compelling than the counter arguments I still cannot imagine the existence of a ‘being’ such as God with the characteristics that such a being would have to possess e.g. existing in another realm which is not ascertainable or measurable by our own empirical methods; a creator of the universe and life etc. etc. This seems the stuff of fantasy and completely beyond my imagination so I am doomed to become a sceptic for life. Because that concept is so unimaginable there is always the thought that maybe, just maybe, it all happened naturally by deep laws of which we know nothing. For sure the reasoning of Dr Craig, Perry, and a host of other deep thinking scientists and theologians is of the highest order but a force outside space and time who/which existed in infinity with the power to create universes and conscious life?
        It’s true to say that just because I cannot imagine something it doesn’t mean it isn’t true. Until it is explained to me I can’t imagine how a computer or a skyscraper is built or how digital photography works. These things require mathematics scientific and engineering prowess of which I know nothing but at least I can see a computer and a skyscraper and their creation can be explained to me in empirical terms that I understand. That can’t be said of God’s existence.

    • Bill Davison says:

      Martin – Why DO we bother our backsides condidering the possibility of a Creator?

      The utter vastness of this set-up cannot really be comprehended by the Human mind.

      Delving into the structure of the Atom, can you visualize it’s ultimate base?

      Looking into Space, can you visualize it’s limit?

      We’re contemplating INFINITIES!

      All well beyond the capabilities of our puny minds!

      If there IS a Creator, we must ask who created IT. I’m afraid our minds will always attempt to make some kind of sense out of it all but the more one ponders Religiosity, the dafter it gets!

      It’s all MIND GAMES! Keeps us occupied.

  20. Mikhail Dvortsov says:

    Hi Perry.

    I appreciate your emails and links to your websites but please stop sending your messages to me. I am an atheist and have enough arguments to stay the way I am. And yes, pretty much the argument can be reduced to the fact of suffering. Though I have a logical argument of impossibility of god too. But I don’t think you are ready to hear that.
    Let’s call all suffering ‘cancer’. The thesis is simple: If there is cancer there can be god but there can only be at least an indifferent god or worse, a sadist god. An indifferent to cancer or sadist god is like an indifferent to cancer or sadist parent – he/she should be feared, despised and rebelled against. By appeasing such god, praying to him/her you are betraying yourself and humanity with your and its suffering. It’s pretty shameful position, don’t you think?

    I got your idea about evolution. And by in large I agree with that Darwinian model is severely insufficient.; more – it is not a theory of life per sei. As an atheist, I think that we, the atheists, do not have a serious theory of life yet. It does not mean there haven’t been more interesting secular attempts than Darwinism to tackle the problem…

    I disagree with you on a few points.
    First, I do not believe your random generator (RG) correctly illustrates what is going on. First off a system can evolve one letter at a time. It can happen in the case when a single letter itself contains a meaning.
    Secondly, it seems to me that a random change or a mutation can be of two sorts: an internal mistake and an induced error. Why must it be important for a system to differentiate between the two? Because an externally induced mistake can be an indication of a systemic change in the environment. In other words it will serve as a signal to adapt. But if it’s just an internal mistake no adaptation is needed. Seems that the only way for a system to recognize the difference between an internal and induced mistake is to go and check the original blueprint.
    But it’s not enough. The “checking police” itself can make a mistake in its checking procedures or itself be affected externally. And so somebody, a “super-checking police” has to check with the blueprint of the checking police. And so on ad infinitum…
    In other words your beautiful “intelligent” life machine is not that intelligent as it is inherently limited by internal/external duality principle. Just as we are in our intelligence.

    Thirdly, your RG seems to omit a fundamental factor in a natural random processing and so misrepresents what’s gong on. You see, your RG is static in a sense that has a prefixed set of meanings derived from Standard English. In other words, you and your readers are playing models for the environment when they check what happens after a random mutation or the provide the standard of a meaningful system identity with themselves, rather than the other way around.
    And also You and other RG users are bad, incorrect models of the environment because you do not meaningfully change yourselves vis-à-vis the system unlike the actual environment. You see my point?
    And so when you rush to use the word “intelligent” you do it groundlessly evoking god when clearly the live “intelligent” systems are flawed.
    Regardless, it’s true that we have a problem on our hands that life is a substantially different matter from physics. I suggest you read Robert Rosen or works on autopoesis to get more of theoretical attempts to grasp this.

    Anyway, thank you for your effort but it’s far from being sufficient for me.

    Mikhail Dvortsov

    • perrymarshall says:

      Mikhail,

      Regarding the existence of evil I think the facts at hand fit the Biblical model rather well: That a malevolent being (Satan) is the operative ruler of this world.

      I know of no culture or language that does not have a fairly rich language to describe evil spiritual beings and something akin to demonic possession.

      Regarding your comments about the Origin of Life, I would amplify your statement and say that it is not currently possible to discuss OOL and properly label any such discussion a scientific discussion. There is no scientific data to support the idea of abiogenesis. Only the inevitable philosophical conclusion that there had to be a first life form. Thus all the argument about whether ID is scientific or not is hypocritical because none of the materialistic theories are scientific either.

      As for the RG, you’re basically saying that it’s a bad simulation because English is fixed and in nature there are infinite possibilities. This does not help you; this only hurts you. Because any set of instructions for assembling anything has to be written in SOME language and the situation is even worse if you have no language to begin with. Which is another way of stating the origin of life problem in terms of codes and information – it’s the issue I address repeatedly: “You cannot derive the genetic code from the laws of physics.”

      I submit to you that DNA is less forgiving than English – any experiment with random mutation is even worse if you use actual DNA. If you can’t evolve a Google ad with random mutation there’s no way you can evolve a bacteria or a human that way.

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