In another post, bestselling author Anne Rice told you her story – how, through historical research, she became convinced the facts support a real Jesus who rose from the dead. She explains how and why she left atheism to embrace hope.
Then, in 2010, she left the church. She said:
“For those who care, and I understand if you don’t: Today I quit being a Christian … It’s simply impossible for me to ‘belong’ to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I’ve tried. I’ve failed. I’m an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else.
“My faith in Christ is central to my life. My conversion from a pessimistic atheist lost in a world I didn’t understand, to an optimistic believer in a universe created and sustained by a loving God is crucial to me. But following Christ does not mean following His followers. Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity and always will be, no matter what Christianity is, has been or might become.”
Many have asked my thoughts about Anne Rice’s departure from the Catholic Church. Let me tell you my own story of struggling with quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious church people.
When I was 12, my mom went “bipolar.” Manic depressive with mild schizophrenia.
Except that for a year and a half, nobody knew that’s what was wrong with her. We just knew she was impossible to live with.
The fights, the arguments and contention would start as soon as I got home from school every day and stretch past bedtime.
Our entire family was bedlam for a year and a half.
Mom would swing from being your best friend to your worst enemy at the slightest provocation. I’d come home from school and find she’d tossed boxes of my stuff in the garbage. She’d say embarrassing things to my friends.
She insisted dad wasn’t really her husband. She said he was a man who looked just like Bob and she was sentenced to live with him until the ‘real’ Bob came back. When he came home from work she would hurl accusations at him. My brother and sister and I would complain bitterly to him about how she was treating us.
It was almost impossible to not get sucked into some kind of conflict every day. Home was the most dangerous place a kid could be.
My dad was taking her to doctors and counselors but nobody seemed to be able to arrive at any conclusion. Meanwhile, people watched us with a judgmental eye.
My dad was an associate pastor at a very large church in Nebraska, 2000+ members. Dad started getting heat from his boss, the senior pastor, Mr. G, who didn’t like the fact that one of the pastors’ wives was “out of line.”
Mr. G quoted the scripture that says a pastor should be in control of his family and told dad if he didn’t straighten out mom’s problem, he might have to leave.
Dad pursued answers and eventually got mom to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist diagnosed her with a chemical imbalance and bipolar disorder.
That trip to the psychiatrist was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Psychiatrists and psychologists, in Mr. G’s opinion, were the new high priests of a secular order that would dismiss all human ills as curable illnesses. Psychiatrists didn’t have the courage to call evil by its real names – SIN and DISOBEDIENCE. They existed to give people like my mom an alibi. Mr. G declared Mom insubordinate and rebellious.
Literally on the same day the diagnosis came back, Mr. G and Mr. J, the pastors of our church, visited our house to deliver the news. We all sat in the living room as they announced, “We’ve asked your father to resign from his responsibilities. He’s no longer qualified to be a pastor.”
I listened without much comment. I was 13. My older sister, however, was livid. At 18 she’d formed definite opinions about what had transpired. She started sobbing and retorted angrily to Mr. J: “If people knew what YOUR daughter does when she’s out at night, they’d be forcing you to resign too.”
Mr. J said, “We’re not here to talk about me or my family today, Robin. We’re here to talk about you.”
Earlier that day, dad had been brought before the Board of Elders to hear their final verdict. One by one, they agreed with Mr. G: “Bob, you’re not in control of your family. We’re sorry, you have to step down.” Mr. G demoted dad and announced to 2,000 people the following Sunday that dad had “resigned” so he could “attend to problems with Betty and the family.”
The next months were painful indeed. Few knew the real story. Some gathered around us. Most only knew something disgraceful had happened though and kept their distance. We felt like pariahs.
Dad couldn’t hang with his same friends anymore. He wasn’t invited to lunch at work. They shut him out of staff meetings. They hadn’t cut his pay, but he did lose a tax deduction. Less money to go around.
A couple months later I got into a fist fight at school. Came home with two black eyes. Bad report cards and complaints from teachers. All this added to the mounting case against dad.
He would come home from work every night and sit on the couch and sob. Mom told him it was all his fault for being such a cruel tyrant.
Dad followed through with the psychiatrist’s advice to get her on a prescription drug. Literally within a few days, mom transformed from defiant and combative to quiet and cooperative. The bizarre behavior stopped completely. Not only that, she went from being angry and defensive to feeling deep remorse about her erratic behavior.
Soon it became clear that Mr. G torpedoed dad simply because mom had a medical problem – a chemical imbalance – and that mom’s behavior wasn’t “sin” or “rebellion.” It was a well-understood mental illness. She couldn’t help herself.
Dad was hurt and humiliated and felt abandoned. He desperately wanted to bail. A lot of people told him he should quit his job, especially our relatives who understood the scope of the situation.
Dad thought about pulling up stakes, moving elsewhere. He decided to stick it out. To argue his case and vindicate himself.
Few men had the balls to stand up to Mr. G, but dad did. As mom’s condition improved, he said, “Mr. G, you made a wrong judgment and you need to apologize to my wife.”
Furthermore dad made Mr. G write her a letter of reconciliation, because by this time mom had become terrified of Mr. G. He had, after all, the ability to singlehandedly destroy dad’s career.
Nine months after dad had been demoted, he was reinstated.
Two weeks later dad was diagnosed with cancer.
Had dad cut and run, he would’ve been in a newcomer in some new environment, maybe even starting over in a brand new city, surrounded by strangers.
But since he’d stuck it out and vindicated himself, we were surrounded by a faith community that lent us help with dinners and financial support and prayers and encouragement.
Dad had major surgery. He was cancer free for a year and a half, then it came back. Treatments were unsuccessful, and as it became clear that he wasn’t going to make it, Mr. G secretly mailed a letter to everyone else at church. He explained how this summer might be Bob’s last and it would be really nice to raise some money, so Bob can take a trip to the West Coast.
$10,000 came in. In 1986 that was enough to not only take dad to California, a place he’d always longed to visit, but it was enough to get all of us to Alaska and Hawaii too. Dad experienced a 5 week “last hurrah” with his wife and kids that July.
That October, he died. I was 17.
I can’t tell you how many things I’ve wanted to quit, and didn’t, because dad wouldn’t throw in the towel and walk away from a bunch of quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous people.
And say what you want about ’em, when you’re in the oncology ward with terminal cancer, those are the same people that will probably be with you as you pass from here to the other side.
They will still have their faults and you will have yours, but… blood is thicker than water.
A faith community can become just as close and even closer than your biological family. It’s why they can hurt you so easily.
But there’s no such thing as a real community, or even a real relationship, that isn’t vulnerable. Painfully so sometimes. During our special vacation to California, dad told me that getting rejected and blamed for a mess he had no control of had been worse than dying of cancer was now.
Peter asked Jesus, how many times should I forgive my brother? Seven times?
Jesus said, “Seventy times seven. That’s how many times you should forgive.”
What do you forgive people for, anyway??
For being quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous. For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14-15.
After the potluck dinners have ended and people start throwing chairs at each other, it’s so easy to pull the plug and run. So many marriages don’t work out, it’s so easy to just live with someone and see how things turn out.
It IS easier.
It’s easier at first.
But when a series of relationships fail, they rip your heart to shreds just as much whether you were married or not. It just seemed like not ‘committing’ yourself lessened the risk. If your “common law wife” leaves you after 10 years, how is that any less painful than if your legally married wife leaves you? Just because it’s ‘unofficial’ doesn’t make it less perilous.
I’ve had to make multiple passes of forgiveness about Mr. G. A few years later when more fiascoes erupted, I had to let go again.
A few years after that, it occurred to me that my dad might not have even gotten cancer in the first place had he not endured two years in such a toxic, unsupportive, humiliating environment. That’s speculation, but still I had even more forgiveness I had to do.
A year ago I realized I needed to confront yet another layer of unforgiveness within myself. I had made a conscious choice to let go of the past, when I suddenly felt God saying to me, “The Father’s Heart is going to be poured out over Mr. G and his church.”
The day you forgive anther person is the day new blessings get released into their life. The day you forgive another person is the day you stop being a victim of whatever they did to you.
Dear Anne Rice, I greatly esteem your writing and your scholarship. I commend you for your adroit case for the historical Jesus. I appeal to you as a brother and member of the imperfect body of Christ, that to exit and publicly denounce them is to embrace quarreling… hostility… and public disputes.
From an individual view it’s all justified. But isolation makes islands of all of us. When we who were mistreated gather together in opposition to those who did us wrong, we inevitably become like those whom we judge.
A few years ago I visited an old college buddy in Washington DC. He was an exquisitely smart, seminary educated man who’d been a pastor in a Protestant evangelical church. He’d recently converted from Protestant to Eastern Orthodox.
Eastern Orthodox??? Most Americans don’t even know what that is.
I was dying to hear his explanation. “I don’t know what Peter’s going to tell me, but it’s sure gonna be interesting.”
I wasn’t disappointed. We sat up late three nights in a row exploring his decision. I don’t have time for the whole story now, but one of the points he made was this: “Protestants have ‘splitting off’ in their very DNA. As soon as they disagree, they leave First Baptist Church to go start Second Baptist Church. Then some of those people split off and form Third Baptist Church and on and on it goes.
“Catholics and Orthodox people don’t automatically do that. They prize unity. I have a bishop over me and he’s like a father to me and my wife. We live in community and in covenant together. He’s responsible to look out for us and we choose to be in a trusting mutual relationship.”
Whether you’re Protestant or Catholic or Orthodox… or if you’re on the outside looking in… I want to encourage you: living the nomad life is less demanding in the short term but lonelier in the long term.
As you make forgiveness a way of life, when you choose to live in community, you earn a kind of compound interest of grace. Months or years do not always reveal the fruit of that. It grows evident over decades. Community is the only place where you truly learn to forgive and learn to love.
The only way we exorcise our demons – both figuratively and literally – is in committed relationships with other people. Those around us are mirrors. They show us our faults, and we theirs. As we bathe those faults in mercy and forgiveness we become the people we aspire to be.
Perry Marshall
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Dear Perry,
I was impressed by Anne Rice’s conversion from atheism to Christianity. When I read that, I said a loud, “Praise God!” It was truly inspiring. I have several atheist friends, and the strange, and depressing thing, is that they read the bible and know more about it then Christians. They don’t judge me, and I don’t judge them. God will call whomever He chooses, when He chooses….as He said, “You did not choose me, I chose you.” He loved us, long before we loved Him.
I do not believe that Anne’s holding Christ in her heart and living her life as a Christian without going to a church is wrong. I will not judge her reasons. People are led to church, and they are led away from churches all the time. Her PERSONAL relationship with Jesus is the primary issue.
I love, adore, honor and cherish God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. I pray every day…for people all over the world, and those I know that have specific needs. God is in my heart and I talk with him during the course of the day about everything. God’s prophets were often ALONE, except for God. They were abused, chastised, humiliated, ignored and even asked God why they had ever been born, and some, wanted to die. Others that didn’t want to die, were still brutally murdered. I don’t believe that anyone has to go to a “building” with a group of other people to love, adore, honor and worship God. I believe that a PERSONAL relationship with God is the key to the journey in each of our lives. We were never meant to do this life alone….and that doesn’t mean being with a group of people in a building, it means we were never to be alone without God. I don’t believe in organized religion. I don’t attend church. I have attended 10 different churches. I didn’t see God there. I see God here, in my own home, in my life, in every place I go…He is always with me. As CS Lewis said, if in your heart and conscience, you don’t believe that church is a place to be, then God is not leading you there. I fellowship with many people “outside” a church. Jesus’ ministry was traveling around the countryside speaking to the people, and it was all home churches, small groups, in the First Century Church. Some people need to go to church. Some people are biblical scholars and theologians by the sheer force of their great hunger to learn all they can about the bible and God. I am one of those people. I need God. I want God. I dearly love God. But going to a building with a group of people is not God. I receive nothing from church that the Lord God Himself has not taught me. I carry what He has taught me and the love and respect for people wherever I go. I don’t feel called to go to any church. I feel called by God every day to spend time with him continually throughout the day. Why can’t Anne Rice just be herself, love God and have that wonderful, peaceful relationship with him in her own home? God deals with each one of us as a unique, special and one-of-a-kind person. The bible said to study to prove yourself worthy. You don’t need to go to church to study the bible. I have, praise God, excellent understanding of the English language and can read the text myself and comprehend it. The Holy Spirit assures that we “get it right”. Why does Ann Rice have to go to church? The bottom-line is, as she said, she still loves Jesus and has a personal relationship with Him. Not all of us were made to be people pleasers. As Paul said, “If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a disciple of Jesus Christ.” I’m not trying to please any church group, or any organized religion. I have God, and He, my beloved, is the source of all my joy and fulfillment. I am so pleased that Anne Rice became a Christian, and I find no fault in the fact that she worships him in her own private relationship and is happy. Why should she go to church?
God Bless you, Perry. Love in Christ, Janiah
I admit I haven’t read the whole article, just the first part Mrs Rice explaining her decision.
I’m sorry to say – I’m not surprised, Mrs Rice.
First of all, I read your previous article about your conversion (with or without quotes) and it had expiring elements and I was glad for you, hoping you will find the path to God. However, the fact that you write fiction about Jesus’ childhood left me disappointed. I believe the Christian (and the Christian is by definition the disciple of Christ, repented and baptized therefore received Holy Spirit) should live by the Word of God doing the deeds that God is pleased with, using their time, resources and talents wisely.
Needless to say, I was born and raised Catholic (as you were) but when I decided to convert from my atheism, I haven’t gone back to the Church that helped my growth as atheist in the first place, but I joined the Church that I knew people strive to live by the Bible – Zagreb Church of Christ.
When you add that 2 facts together, it just can’t lead to God, I’m sorry. Bible says so, not me.
I’ll pray for you that God helps you find your way to him, of course.
Sincerely
Dalibor Sver
I think that a little humor might help break the tension. When I’m confronted with interpersonal strife, I like to quote Monty Python and the Holy Grail: “First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.”
Gee thats the same way the Army teaches it, anyway thanx for the comic relief.
Wow, good article. I can relate to this 85%. My father was a ex-Catholic priest (though still very active in the Church) and my mother went through mental health problems much like yours when I was around the same age.
Fortunately, my father stuck by her and after lots of hospital, doctors and counselors things did get “good enough.” My father’s turning 90 soon, and they are both still married and living at home and very active in their Church (often there 2-3 times a day).
While I ended up joining another religion, I admire the albeit-far-from-perfect church community they have. Sometimes it seems more like a “club” than a “church” to me — but certainly pointed in the right direction.
My only answer to your problem is attend 1 meeting of the Jehovah witnesses and you will find love, trust, and that they go exactly by the Bible. Hitler so trusted them that they would not do anything to harm him or his staff that he had them as house keepers etc. In my 87 years I have attended many churches and found the Jehovah witnesses to be one Religion I could become a part of. In my 6 years with them I am sure I made the right decision.
Perry,
I was reading this with tears in my eyes with the part about your father. What a great example he was.
As for a bipolar mom — mine wasn’t as bad — but I definitely connect with you there. She is bipolar, and it was one of the reasons my parents are no longer together. Towards the end it was a lot like what you described, hair-turn emotional changes … which … ultimately led to some bad decisions that tore it all apart.
Good news is shes’ remarried now and Dad’s still single, and they’re both doing well because of the forgiveness that’s flowed both ways.
Great post Perry and I definitely agree.
With Love,
CAleb
Hi Perry
Thanks for such an awesome and heart felt letter.
I was attracted to Jesus because he FIRST loved me. in 1977
I have been a faihful follower of his for almost 34 Years.
I have been active in only 3 churches in all that time.
I am a loner, looking after my daughter who is now 19 for the last 10 years after my wife (a faithful christian) also diagnosed with a Chemical Imbalance, divorced me for another man, whom she felt could understand her, he also diovorced her a couple of years later.
I have been single for over 10 years because i am too afraid of the stigma attached to divorce.
can i truly trust another woman?.
i also have a new doctrine that of Grace.
Although i feel loved, feel very lonely at times.
I find that the church always finds argument with me because i teach people to use their minds to reach their potential, and also teach firewalking, which by church standards is demonic.
So i carry my burden alone, perhaps one day i will find someone to share my life with, but in all of this, thanks for sharing it makes me feel like i am not alone.
apologies for the rant, being single i don’t get to talk to many people much.
This was a great article. We cannot get away from judgment though. We all make judgments either to forgive and continue loving or to hate and keep nursing our grudges or to simply remain indifferent to evil around us. Perry’s Dad did great to hang in there and continue loving those people.
However there is nothing wrong with leaving a bad situation. The recovering alcoholic or drug addict is wise to steer clear of his old friends. In the same way a church going person who has a problem with gossip or porn or idolatry would be wise to leave his church if everyone else there has the same problem.
So Ann Rice could very well have made the right decision.
You have precipitated a good thread here with your article about Anne Rice leaving the organized church, Perry. Thanks for that. I will add (to what I said ‘way above) that I have been influenced by 1) years of meditation practice and prayer; and 2) many writers of all stripes – Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit priest who after the trauma of WW I found a “vision” of the slow converging evolution of the Creation and of humanity as a part of that Creation; Matthew Fox, a (now former) Dominican priest who wrote a book, “Original Blessing,” countering the “original sin” model of St. Augustine; Fr. Thomas Berry, who wrote of “the sacred universe;” Aldous Huxley, who passed on the writings of the mystics of the world faiths in “The Perennial Philosophy;” and others.
Peace be TO and THROUGH all here and all of us!
For me, being a Christian is about treating other people the same way that you would like to be treated yourself.
This obviously does not work with Tamil Tigers and Somali pirates, that have found safe haven in Canada.
Personally, I have found safe haven in Peru… lol
Let´s remember the church is the Body of Christ, not the building we meet in. If we are to be salt of the earth, we much get out of the salt shaker and out into ministry in the world. I was forced to make a choice by my church … I chose to work outside the wall. Four years now, my co-worker and I have a center for children and youth, their mothers and grandparents are our helpers. We do not call it a church as those who come likely attend varied denomications. We do not ask. We meet Saturday, Tues and Thursday afternoons and Leave Sunday open. We include Bible, Videos, music and Crafts, table games, Basketball and soccor, We privide a small snack before they leave the center. This hard choice has been what we needed to built community for all of us. There is no membership and anyone is welcomed to come and go and they feel. In 2006 I went through cancer treatment. These are the ones who stood with me… not the churches I had attended and worked in as a missionary for 30 years.
What is the Lord’s church? I believe that it is not a building. However, I believe that we must “let our light so shine before men” that we are known as children of God, as believers. Let us remember that Jesus had more problems with the religious leaders of His day than most would care to admit. At one time He referred to them as something else indeed when he told them they were like their father, Satan and the truth was not in them.
This is a very difficult thing for many of us because most organized religion does not truly follow the teachings of Jesus. And although I thank God that your family, Sir, found a way to stay in your church and forgive in spite of what they put you through, it does not work that way for many of us. So I can also understand Ms. Rice as well. I came from an entire community where even in church you were not accepted unless you publicly drank,did drugs,or prostitued yourself. Because I did not do those things (my conscience told me the Bible and Jesus said they were wrong) I was hated and so was everyone I cared about. Many lives were ruined because some of us never had a chance. I was a faithful attender; but I was always unwelcome because I know I don’t have all the answers and that’s why I pray for them. “Church” people got my son involved with a prostitute and had him supporting the whole family of acoholics and drug addicts until they bled him dry and then the rest of his family they bled dry too. After the hooker left him because he was of no more benefit to her or her family, all the churches continued “helping” her and her family while my son is living homeless without work or a helping hand of any kind other than mine and there is very little I can do for him because although the hooker has married, every time he gets a little work she still asks and gets everything he has. We have had almost all momentos my dead parents and family left us stolen and three homes burned and they’re still coming for more. They have even taken physical possession of the property we own (left us by my mother’s family), polluted the land, sold the trees and run all the wildlife off it. And we never harmed anyone in our lives! What is Christian about that? I really don’t belong in an organization like that.
Dear Bobbie,
You questions and grievances can be summarized in your penultimate question: “What is Christian about that?”
In the book of Revelations Chapters 2 and 3, in the Bible, remember that Jesus spoke to some believers who were members of the 7 churches and yet were untouched by the moral laxity of the leadership. He didn’t ask them to remove themselves…
That being said, I think your experience was horrendous and sounds like you weren’t even in a church, rather some sort of cult body…
Perry, I believe, is asking Anne Rice not to turn away from all Christianity because of the sins of some. Her reasons are deeply personal, but I think she would need to determine if Christianity itself is the problem (meaning that it is not in the state Christ meant it to be, doctrinally and in spirit), rather than focus on the contentions as her reason for turning away for good.
Hard to believe but then again truth often is. I was kept out of an organisation. My husband did all in his power to deter me from going to the church meetings and because of this difficulty the people judged me as unworthy to mix with them and told me I would be going down at Armageddon. I won’t put in type the rest of the gruesome prediction.
These people were prepared to welcome and give encouragement to my husband who did not have any interest in God or His standards but I was the person the people in the organisation refused to accept. I now look to my God to teach me the bible and am glad to have nothing to do with these people. I do not consider myself alone I have God and his son who died for me and all mankind to keep me company.
I hold no grudges but the dogmatic dictates of these people I do not have the power to endure. Just like what Perry’s dad suffered, I suffered a great many times over. I could fill a book with all the crazy unjustices which were not only cruel but was also dangerous. One person they dictated to lost her children to her husband and she never saw them again. This young woman had told me of her situation and I thought the elders were wrong to put her babies lives in danger. The husband took the children out of the country. These religious zealots harbour no feelings of responsibility for the outcome of their dictates on peoples lives.
However I think unless your son has children by the hooker he would be wise to have no further dealings with her or her supporters. And if there are no children of his involved I would advise you not to support him in sustaining such a relationship.
Oh and if what you say is true of the behaviour of the people belonging to that Church their behaviour has no bearing on the Church Jesus built. When Jesus cured the sick and infirm he would say “your sins are forgiven you! go and sin no more”. He did not say his sacrifice was to be taken lightly and that people could do what they like and all will be forgiven. James 1:14 says sin when it is accomplished brings forth death.
This brings to question whether it is intelligent and right for you to make yourself a target and encourage these people to sin and bring the penalty of adverse judgement on themselves.
It is wrong for anyone to think they can sin continually and be forgiven. A person must want to reject the bad and do good or they will answer for their sins on judgement day. I could quote more scripture to prove the point. When scripture backs a testimony it is then God’s word and not the word of an imperfect human.
Hey Clara, what you’re doing is great. I hope that Anne can find her way to do that also, and if she keeps following Jesus as the center-point of her life, then she probably will. Many of us have made a similar journey as we follow Jesus, so I’m cheering for you and Anne. By following Jesus out of institutions that are caught up in their own politics and interests, we are not being disloyal to the church, but rather radicalizing it. As members of Christ’s Body we are trying to follow Jesus into being and doing what the church was always meant to be: “Christ’s ecclesia” in a town, “Christ’s neighborhood-development meeting,” encouraging each other to do the work of Jesus out in the real world. That’s exactly what you’re doing. Not everything called “church” IS a church in the Biblical sense. And some not-called church, actually are. (I think this phenomenon is called the Emerging Church in some circles, but this non-institutional mode has always existed since the first century.) You have not left the church. You’ve just left a particular institutional structure, and adopted a more radical mode of church. You’re both still family in my eyes :-), and I’m sure in the eyes of Christ.
Perry – you sound like more of a Christian than most Christians I know. I am an “unchurched” Christian and I understand Ann Rice’s frustration with the Church. However, with all the research she did, it should have come as no surprise that the Catholic Church is contentious and disputatious. Just read the Epistles. Conflict began about one day after Jesus ascended. When I read her conversion story, I got the feeling she was more attracted to the structure of ritual and theology than to the people. Her judgment against the people of the church shows that she never really joined the community. Too bad. Even as a loner, she will be happier if she can forgive her fellow Christians for not being perfect.
Dear Steve Simmer:
The Bible is either God’s word or its not. If it is God’s word then it is a sin , a deliberate disobedience to forsake the assembly of believers. I cringe when I hear a Christian claiming himself or someone else superior because they do forsake the assemble.
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Claiming a Christian is superior is wrong period, to do so because they disobey the clear teaching of scripture is worse. Of course I will be ridiculed and probably banned for saying what God says in the Bible, most Christians do not want to hear that.
The problem with most churches is the problem with most Christians, their authority is their intellect, not the word of God. Sadly most churches are more interested in numbers than saving souls so they lower their standards until no one is offended. People don’t like God’s rules so we have denominations {values} . Some simply make up their own.
Dear Michael,
I can see your sense of justice about these people who commit grave transgressions against other people, but the real question is, ‘who isn’t guilty of something or the other?’
I ask you to consider Nelson Mandela.
He is a great world leader and the reason he is admired is because he forgave. Simple. It doesn’t diminish the weight of the atrocities that were committed against him, rather it shows that he had a stronger character than those that persecuted him. That his principles were of a higher value.
Society put in place structures to maintain public peace and punish dangerous acts of crime, but forgiveness is a PERSONAL issue of release from the pain of a crime, and gives you us freedom to move on with your lives.
God bless you.
Let’s forgive all the jihadist terrorists each time they kill.
Let’s forgive murderers,rapists,child molesters,theives,and drug pushers each time they committ their crimes. Just turn the other cheek and you’ll go to heaven.
Oh I see! Put them in prison then forgive them and when they are let out everything will be ok because we forgave them.
What??!!!
Michael
Consider two things:
1. To forgive is a choice. Jesus forgave those who crusified Him, as suggested we do the same. It’s a choice.
2. Forgiving another is an entirely separate decision from condoning their actions. By forgive the rapist you have not condoned their action.
Exactly! Forgiveness isn’t for the sinner but for the person wounded. When we forgive someone we can move past our anger and hurt and in turn enable ourselves to deal with the sinner with a clear and rational mind.
My DEAR Perry Marshall, THIS IS A QUESTION THAT FOXES ME
HOW TO FORGIVE ” jihadist terrorists each time they kill. murderers,rapists,child molesters,theives,and drug pushers” AND NOT TAKE any Penal action by going to the POLICE OF THE STATE / Country I AM IN. I can forgive WITHIN BUT I MUST GO TO THE POLICE so that: The Jihadist… to drug pushers MUST BE JAILED for giving THEM a chance to FORGIVE THEMSELVES and become part of the society and still if they are NOT repentant SENTENCE THEM TO DEATH .. Hanging, electric chair or Injection. I am for Capital punishment.
Michael,
You are putting words in Perry’s mouth. He is addressing a situation involving relationships between believers. Nevertheless, Scripture does commend, encourage, and command, forgiveness outright to anyone who needs it. Here are four thoughts that might help you to observe things somewhat differently:
1. Issuing forgiveness is not the same thing as approving that which the trespasser needs forgiveness for.
2. Only the offended need worry about entering into that most difficult of tasks.
3. Forgiveness isn’t meant to be dispensed to those not in need of it. The greater the offense the greater the need for forgiveness. The small stuff is easy to forgive, it’s being able to forgive the big trespasses that speaks to the character of the forgiver.
4. Forgiveness does not provide the offender with an out vis-a-vis legal issues. What the law calls for must be fulfilled. It isn’t for a judge & jury to issue forgiveness, only justice. It’s for the offended party to issue forgiveness. If someone is convicted of murder he/she must face the penalty whether or not forgiveness has been granted.
Michael, he who is able to forgive (genuinely, of course) isn’t wishy-washy, weak, or lacking in good moral grounding; he is rather someone of a high order of being who has undergone a genuinely powerful spiritual development. As a matter of fact, one can justly judge one’s spiritual level by the degree to which one can forgive.
Those are just some quick thoughts on your posting. If you wish to pursue further cordial discussion by email please contact me at: joefaia@hotmail.com
We can have a good conversation over a good virtual cup of coffee!
Michael, I think they have already forgiven us a lot for all the hell we did to them until now; from prosperous pacifist countries, the western civilisation brought the Africans to starvation, they stole and are stealing the Middle-East oil, taking the Afgan uranium and lithium.
When China will put embargo on the US and after other 10 years will donate plastic toys and cars to the US to subsist, you’ll understand it.
Forgiveness awaits anyone who CONFESSES and REPENTS of any given sin. Over and over again. In the eyes of God committing any sin is just the same as committing every sin. There are no grades of sin. The jihadist is no worse than the thief.
Thankfully, forgiveness and mercy are within the grasp of eveyone. Tha doesn’t mean sin is without consequence. The Bible tels us the wages of sin are death, unless one is washed in the blood of the Lamb.
No. JesusChrsit didn’t say that there shouldn’t be punishment for bad actions. A criminal must be pursued and put in a place where can harm no one. The damage must be repaired. But there is a moment when the victim must go on. Besides of the duty to restablish order, the victim must, for his own sake, move on. When the attitude of victim lasts too long, normally the victim starts to do the bad that formerly received.
Sorry, I forgot to remark that, if memory serves me well, the Scripture claims that the offender must ask for forgiveness, at least to the humans victims. God merciful is different.
We must forgive those who have wronged us if we are to be forgiven by God for our own wrongs. But that does not mean to forget the evil done by others, and it does not mean that they are not to be punished for their evils. We must still attempt to protect society from evil people. Jesus is all about love and mercy, but is not opposed to appropriate punishment. Forgiveness is more about our relationship with God than our relationship with evil doers.
Dear Mr.Marshall,
I have been reading your emails for a long time now with a lot of interest. But this by far is the most powerful message I have read.
I was publicly humiliated and thrown out of a church along with two of my friends when we were just 24/25 years old – on a trumped up charge. The pastor accused us in public.. and never apologised when the truth came out.. the elders called us back when the truth came out but even they only apologised in private and never cleared our name – because it would have meant that the pastor’s lies would come out.
I took years to get over that.
Now I pastor a church in India, and this whole issue of people leaving the church because the people in it aren’t perfect is something that keeps surfacing so often. Your message is golden.
Most appreciated.
Prem Kurian Philip
I was a pentacost, but log time study and watch without prejdgement I understand Catholic Church is on the rigt way to Christ. Problem of Pentacost Church is that they are not ready to study about Christ outside from their church. They believe in their Church and Pastor nore than Christ.
Some of the meanest, most selfish people I have ever met have been in churches. It’s almost like belonging to a ‘community’ of like-minded and committed religious folk gave them license to judge. Well, this is a great tool for testing our forgiveness factor! The only problem is that many people come to Jesus as fragile, near-spiritual-death seekers who need protection. What they get from this so-called ‘Christian’ community is platitudes like: “Well you have Jesus now, He will protect you.” This leaves them (the community) off the hook for any damage they do when they bring someone into the fold and then drop them like a hot potato to fend for themselves, or confront them about something without Godly wisdom or guidance, or a millions other things.
Mr. Perry, in your father’s case he was fortunate to be able to cause his situation turn around. This is not often the case. It is easier to be speak positively from such a vantage. Still, I empathize with your experience.
As a single mother, I have had experiences in church where there was no recourse, just backs turned and that was it! I can honestly say I followed the Bibles advice in handling the situation from the beginning to the end and can only be satisfied with the knowledge that our dear Lord knows this and He is the one who truly counts.
A community can be a ‘herd’. A herd can be a stampede, a bunch of mad cows with no real direction; they’re just moving where the guy up front decides to lead them for whatever his primary, secondary, tertiary (and so on) agendas may be.
So, I concur with Ann Rice, but see the merits of your argument.
When I pray I ask Jesus to forgive us for so many things we do in His name and for the strength and wisdom and words to find a way to show others that Jesus is not like us, but that we are like little children playacting our very neurologically immature version of what it means to be a human, including ’Ken and Barbie Christian’. The good news is that we can choose to put our lives in His precious hands and mature, while we aid those around us, as He encouraged us to do.
Greetings Perry,
I don’t usually comment on articles I read and this is a first in over a year.
First, I want to thank you for sharing your story. That in itself takes a lot of guts.
Second, like you and many others, I struggle with some of my church members but like you and your dad, I realize we are all in need of fellowship. After all, that is what church is for, right? If we were all perfect, we wouldn’t need each other.
Also, Jesus did say that it wasn’t the healthy who need a doctor but the sick. He came to work with these kind of people and as ‘followers’ of Him, we should do the same. Needless to say, it’s easier said than done, but I believe this is where the ‘true Christians’ will stand.
God bless and all the best to you and yours,
Andrew
I guess Mrs Rice’s decisions may be for the reasons that I found a conversation troublesome last night. I overheard an obese woman giving fat loss tips to other fat people. Technically she was correct in what she said. However, as the line goes “who you are speaks so loudly I cannot hear a word you are saying”.
As such taking advice from hypocrites is kind of like lying to yourself.
Not trying to stir up the pot here. But I think this example pretty much sums up most peoples problems with organized religions.
I believe you should look for a church as if you were shopping for a car. If you become a member of a church and find you are not accepted or welcome, That you should leave and kick the dust from your feet. I have belonged to too many churches where the Pastor forgot he was mortal and began believing he himself was the way. The Bible tells us to beware for there are many churches that will fall by the wayside. Most Christians I have met, are weekend warriors. Whom after there weekly two hours of worship, go back to living a very secular life during the rest of the week. Many churches I have attended have congregants that practice back biteing and gossip. Whom pick and choose Bible verses to suit there need. Especially if that need be too shun another member of the congregation. Church today has become more like “Club Christian” And instead of being welcoming and tolerant. They only accept like minded people. Very much like ” Social Incest ” and without being P.C. We all know the results of inbreeding. The close mindedness and intolerance should be a turn off for anyone. The pastor that targets servicemens funerals spouting that those men and woman died because of Americas acceptance of homosexuality, or the evangelicals that target non Christians at the Air Force Acadamy and tells them that ” if they die in combat without accepting Jesus as there Saviour, They will surely go to Hell ” Need Physciatric help not parishioners.
What is one to think. When your Pastor returns from a pilgrimage in Israel and tells his congregation that the Muslim call to prayer sonds like ” Dogs Baying at the moon ” While encouraging his parish to gobble like turkey’s and calls it speaking in tongues.
I was taught in the Protestant Church That rebellion and disobedience was the same as witchcraft yet isn’t that exactly what the protestant church did when it broke away from the Universal Churh, and since has become so splintered. All this because of petty disagreements. Now none are much in agreement on anything.
Personally I don’t understand why the Christians and Muslim’s don’t embrace each other more especially the Fundementalists sects. They seem to be ” cut from the same bolt of clothe ” in that they are very like minded.
Anyway Perry I enjoyed your blog very much But after reading all the comments, your story Anne Rice’s and my own personal experience with querrelsome and unwelcoming churches. I am not near suprised that the Age of the church is coming to an end.
The day of the church is ending only because God declares it to be so. That’s why there’s so much confusion, corruption, and limited power amoung believer’s.
The New Day has arrived but most are left out because of carnal mindedness. This day has different names like, Sonship, Christian Universalism, Kingdom, etc.
Make no mistake, it’s not an organisation but rather a many member Body of Christ, with Our Lord at it’s head.
If you can hear and fellowship with God ask Him to show you the truth.
The “EnChristed”
There is no perfect church. If we are a fault finder in the church then we will never make any sense that the word of God will have a chance to work in us. As Christian we are to focus on how the love of God works in us. We don’t deserve for his grace but he make it possible for us. Why then should we not allow ourselves be the channel of such love for others. Let us pray for those in our church who looked at themselves as somebody, forgetting who they were!
“Church people” should not color your relationship to God or Jesus. People are sinners, as are you and I.