In another post, bestselling author Anne Rice told you her story – how, through historical research, she became convinced the facts support a real Jesus who rose from the dead. She explains how and why she left atheism to embrace hope.
Then, in 2010, she left the church. She said:
“For those who care, and I understand if you don’t: Today I quit being a Christian … It’s simply impossible for me to ‘belong’ to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I’ve tried. I’ve failed. I’m an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else.
“My faith in Christ is central to my life. My conversion from a pessimistic atheist lost in a world I didn’t understand, to an optimistic believer in a universe created and sustained by a loving God is crucial to me. But following Christ does not mean following His followers. Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity and always will be, no matter what Christianity is, has been or might become.”
Many have asked my thoughts about Anne Rice’s departure from the Catholic Church. Let me tell you my own story of struggling with quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious church people.
When I was 12, my mom went “bipolar.” Manic depressive with mild schizophrenia.
Except that for a year and a half, nobody knew that’s what was wrong with her. We just knew she was impossible to live with.
The fights, the arguments and contention would start as soon as I got home from school every day and stretch past bedtime.
Our entire family was bedlam for a year and a half.
Mom would swing from being your best friend to your worst enemy at the slightest provocation. I’d come home from school and find she’d tossed boxes of my stuff in the garbage. She’d say embarrassing things to my friends.
She insisted dad wasn’t really her husband. She said he was a man who looked just like Bob and she was sentenced to live with him until the ‘real’ Bob came back. When he came home from work she would hurl accusations at him. My brother and sister and I would complain bitterly to him about how she was treating us.
It was almost impossible to not get sucked into some kind of conflict every day. Home was the most dangerous place a kid could be.
My dad was taking her to doctors and counselors but nobody seemed to be able to arrive at any conclusion. Meanwhile, people watched us with a judgmental eye.
My dad was an associate pastor at a very large church in Nebraska, 2000+ members. Dad started getting heat from his boss, the senior pastor, Mr. G, who didn’t like the fact that one of the pastors’ wives was “out of line.”
Mr. G quoted the scripture that says a pastor should be in control of his family and told dad if he didn’t straighten out mom’s problem, he might have to leave.
Dad pursued answers and eventually got mom to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist diagnosed her with a chemical imbalance and bipolar disorder.
That trip to the psychiatrist was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Psychiatrists and psychologists, in Mr. G’s opinion, were the new high priests of a secular order that would dismiss all human ills as curable illnesses. Psychiatrists didn’t have the courage to call evil by its real names – SIN and DISOBEDIENCE. They existed to give people like my mom an alibi. Mr. G declared Mom insubordinate and rebellious.
Literally on the same day the diagnosis came back, Mr. G and Mr. J, the pastors of our church, visited our house to deliver the news. We all sat in the living room as they announced, “We’ve asked your father to resign from his responsibilities. He’s no longer qualified to be a pastor.”
I listened without much comment. I was 13. My older sister, however, was livid. At 18 she’d formed definite opinions about what had transpired. She started sobbing and retorted angrily to Mr. J: “If people knew what YOUR daughter does when she’s out at night, they’d be forcing you to resign too.”
Mr. J said, “We’re not here to talk about me or my family today, Robin. We’re here to talk about you.”
Earlier that day, dad had been brought before the Board of Elders to hear their final verdict. One by one, they agreed with Mr. G: “Bob, you’re not in control of your family. We’re sorry, you have to step down.” Mr. G demoted dad and announced to 2,000 people the following Sunday that dad had “resigned” so he could “attend to problems with Betty and the family.”
The next months were painful indeed. Few knew the real story. Some gathered around us. Most only knew something disgraceful had happened though and kept their distance. We felt like pariahs.
Dad couldn’t hang with his same friends anymore. He wasn’t invited to lunch at work. They shut him out of staff meetings. They hadn’t cut his pay, but he did lose a tax deduction. Less money to go around.
A couple months later I got into a fist fight at school. Came home with two black eyes. Bad report cards and complaints from teachers. All this added to the mounting case against dad.
He would come home from work every night and sit on the couch and sob. Mom told him it was all his fault for being such a cruel tyrant.
Dad followed through with the psychiatrist’s advice to get her on a prescription drug. Literally within a few days, mom transformed from defiant and combative to quiet and cooperative. The bizarre behavior stopped completely. Not only that, she went from being angry and defensive to feeling deep remorse about her erratic behavior.
Soon it became clear that Mr. G torpedoed dad simply because mom had a medical problem – a chemical imbalance – and that mom’s behavior wasn’t “sin” or “rebellion.” It was a well-understood mental illness. She couldn’t help herself.
Dad was hurt and humiliated and felt abandoned. He desperately wanted to bail. A lot of people told him he should quit his job, especially our relatives who understood the scope of the situation.
Dad thought about pulling up stakes, moving elsewhere. He decided to stick it out. To argue his case and vindicate himself.
Few men had the balls to stand up to Mr. G, but dad did. As mom’s condition improved, he said, “Mr. G, you made a wrong judgment and you need to apologize to my wife.”
Furthermore dad made Mr. G write her a letter of reconciliation, because by this time mom had become terrified of Mr. G. He had, after all, the ability to singlehandedly destroy dad’s career.
Nine months after dad had been demoted, he was reinstated.
Two weeks later dad was diagnosed with cancer.
Had dad cut and run, he would’ve been in a newcomer in some new environment, maybe even starting over in a brand new city, surrounded by strangers.
But since he’d stuck it out and vindicated himself, we were surrounded by a faith community that lent us help with dinners and financial support and prayers and encouragement.
Dad had major surgery. He was cancer free for a year and a half, then it came back. Treatments were unsuccessful, and as it became clear that he wasn’t going to make it, Mr. G secretly mailed a letter to everyone else at church. He explained how this summer might be Bob’s last and it would be really nice to raise some money, so Bob can take a trip to the West Coast.
$10,000 came in. In 1986 that was enough to not only take dad to California, a place he’d always longed to visit, but it was enough to get all of us to Alaska and Hawaii too. Dad experienced a 5 week “last hurrah” with his wife and kids that July.
That October, he died. I was 17.
I can’t tell you how many things I’ve wanted to quit, and didn’t, because dad wouldn’t throw in the towel and walk away from a bunch of quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous people.
And say what you want about ’em, when you’re in the oncology ward with terminal cancer, those are the same people that will probably be with you as you pass from here to the other side.
They will still have their faults and you will have yours, but… blood is thicker than water.
A faith community can become just as close and even closer than your biological family. It’s why they can hurt you so easily.
But there’s no such thing as a real community, or even a real relationship, that isn’t vulnerable. Painfully so sometimes. During our special vacation to California, dad told me that getting rejected and blamed for a mess he had no control of had been worse than dying of cancer was now.
Peter asked Jesus, how many times should I forgive my brother? Seven times?
Jesus said, “Seventy times seven. That’s how many times you should forgive.”
What do you forgive people for, anyway??
For being quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous. For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14-15.
After the potluck dinners have ended and people start throwing chairs at each other, it’s so easy to pull the plug and run. So many marriages don’t work out, it’s so easy to just live with someone and see how things turn out.
It IS easier.
It’s easier at first.
But when a series of relationships fail, they rip your heart to shreds just as much whether you were married or not. It just seemed like not ‘committing’ yourself lessened the risk. If your “common law wife” leaves you after 10 years, how is that any less painful than if your legally married wife leaves you? Just because it’s ‘unofficial’ doesn’t make it less perilous.
I’ve had to make multiple passes of forgiveness about Mr. G. A few years later when more fiascoes erupted, I had to let go again.
A few years after that, it occurred to me that my dad might not have even gotten cancer in the first place had he not endured two years in such a toxic, unsupportive, humiliating environment. That’s speculation, but still I had even more forgiveness I had to do.
A year ago I realized I needed to confront yet another layer of unforgiveness within myself. I had made a conscious choice to let go of the past, when I suddenly felt God saying to me, “The Father’s Heart is going to be poured out over Mr. G and his church.”
The day you forgive anther person is the day new blessings get released into their life. The day you forgive another person is the day you stop being a victim of whatever they did to you.
Dear Anne Rice, I greatly esteem your writing and your scholarship. I commend you for your adroit case for the historical Jesus. I appeal to you as a brother and member of the imperfect body of Christ, that to exit and publicly denounce them is to embrace quarreling… hostility… and public disputes.
From an individual view it’s all justified. But isolation makes islands of all of us. When we who were mistreated gather together in opposition to those who did us wrong, we inevitably become like those whom we judge.
A few years ago I visited an old college buddy in Washington DC. He was an exquisitely smart, seminary educated man who’d been a pastor in a Protestant evangelical church. He’d recently converted from Protestant to Eastern Orthodox.
Eastern Orthodox??? Most Americans don’t even know what that is.
I was dying to hear his explanation. “I don’t know what Peter’s going to tell me, but it’s sure gonna be interesting.”
I wasn’t disappointed. We sat up late three nights in a row exploring his decision. I don’t have time for the whole story now, but one of the points he made was this: “Protestants have ‘splitting off’ in their very DNA. As soon as they disagree, they leave First Baptist Church to go start Second Baptist Church. Then some of those people split off and form Third Baptist Church and on and on it goes.
“Catholics and Orthodox people don’t automatically do that. They prize unity. I have a bishop over me and he’s like a father to me and my wife. We live in community and in covenant together. He’s responsible to look out for us and we choose to be in a trusting mutual relationship.”
Whether you’re Protestant or Catholic or Orthodox… or if you’re on the outside looking in… I want to encourage you: living the nomad life is less demanding in the short term but lonelier in the long term.
As you make forgiveness a way of life, when you choose to live in community, you earn a kind of compound interest of grace. Months or years do not always reveal the fruit of that. It grows evident over decades. Community is the only place where you truly learn to forgive and learn to love.
The only way we exorcise our demons – both figuratively and literally – is in committed relationships with other people. Those around us are mirrors. They show us our faults, and we theirs. As we bathe those faults in mercy and forgiveness we become the people we aspire to be.
Perry Marshall
–> Subscribe to the “Seven Great Lies of Organized Religion” email series
Perry, Great article! This aritcle hits some pretty close to home pipe organs in my own life, for a lot of similar reasons.
I must confess when I read the reasons why Anne Rice publicly declared she was no longer able to identify with quarrelsome, hostile…Christians, I completedly understood. In fact, it felt affirming that someone of such notority so elequantly described my same feelings. And to this day, I agree with many of her words…my conscience will not allow anything else….following Christ does not mean following His followers (yes there is a fine line)……Christ is infinetly more important than Christianity…
Many great Church leaders and founding fathers of denominations had similar feelings to Anne Rice. And they went on to be greatly used by God for many generations following. And at the time of their departure from that brand of Christianity, they were labeled as traders or backsliders.
I can appreciate Anne’s soul longing for a better, purer, more loving form of expression (my conscience will not allow anything else) as she trys to work our her faith in fear and trembling. I can also appreciate Perry’s call for forgiveness, community, and not running or church hoping when there are problems.
Having spent 20 years in a large evangelical mega church, I too have difficulty at times being around strong dualistic thinking (we are in, they are out), judgementalism, (our lives are so together, what are those sinners up to?) (yes I am exagerrating to make a point). I have been out of that expression of Christianity for 4 years or so. Brian Mclaren, Richard Rohr, Thomas Merton, Paula D’Arcy, even Fowlers’s Stage of Faith, have been helpful in making sense of how/why a loving community can be so toxic and judgemental at times. Personally, I believe the typical church hangs our at about Stage 2 of the 6 stages Fowler talks about.
I do not claim to be more mature or better off than anyone else. We are all on a journey, different churches, groups, people, teach us different things at different times of our lives.
Thank God that God is God and we aren’t. And our historical failures of claiming that we have finally arrived at “the right set of beleifs” will always exist. And I am glad God is a God of grace committed to our maturity in faith as we are ALL so not done.
I believe that Anne and I have similar feelings and observations about certain unloving behaviors that come out of some church goers. Forgiveness for others, for myself, community, yes this IS following Christ. For me, my inner most being, the part that pants after God like a deer pants after a water brook, was not able to stay in such an environment. I couldn’t do it. Here I stand.
Dear Perry, i am still reading and enjoying your writeings…
i just realized that i have been catholic all my life without being babtized untill 2005 ,when i realized i was missing something in my life, my wife of twenty six years passed away
from lung cancer would not quit smoking …i also had prostrate
and bladdercancer… as i grew up my stepmother would tell me at least once a day ,gene you are going to go to puratory, well iam still alive and headed that way… love my Priest Father
Joe Cramer… but have / am giving alot of thought to stop going
to church… the mass ,i don’t believe half the people there
understand what the mass is about. we have the sunday missile
which been the same missile since 1935 … never a change…
i read my catholic Bible ,not as much as used to , we used to
take our Bible to church , we don’t anymore ,it all in the
missile… i guess what i am trying to say is my church has
turned into a cult, what can i say…gene
Sorry to hear that. I’m a Catholic and love my Church. Regarding the Missal, it was actually published 1570, you know what they say “If it ain’t broke, why fix it?”
It doesn’t stop us from taking our Bibles to Church with us, but as the readings of the day are contained therein, there’s no need to carry two books. The choice is yours. Most parishioners I see don’t use either. The readings are read allowed as is the Gospel and, as you know, most churchgoers follow the Mass without the aid of a book.
A lot of people go out of habit, some out of superstition, others just to try it out and yet those who actually love and believe it to be a Holy Sacrifice.
It is definitely not a cult, it is an act of love.
Sorry to hear about your wife. I hope your health has improved.
As for purgatory, whatever God decides to do with me is fine, besides I don’t think there’s much else I can do than accept His will. Peace!
I’m I missing something? This woman went to the Catholic Instatution and no one has told her this is not Christian!
Yes, Anne Rice went to the Catholic Institution and no one ever told her she was not with Christians! Isn’t their claim higher than that of Jesus, our Lord and Messiah? His peace and blessings be upon us that believe on Him as do the blessed sister Anne Rice in the faith.
At the young age of faith, we need care of seniors and play the defensive against others rather than testifying and nurturing them in the Lord. I am greatly burdened with this guilt due to my behaviour to my non-Christian parents who would be won to the Lord if I did not play defensive, guarding myself by the faith against their idolatrous customs…
If u r ready to avoid ur prejudgement about Catholic church, then u will understand this.
U r hearing from ur child days(like me) Catholics bad, they wrong ,they are sinners. Ur church have any idea about christianity before 15 th Century ?
Yes you seem to be missing something. Respect!
I agree and think that your dad was supposed to stay with the sad situation that unfolded in his church. BUT I don’t believe everybody is told or lead to do the same. I believe it is an individual thing between you and God and what you need for your own growth.
Of course forgiveness is everybody spiritual path across the board.
I was asked by God one time in my life to forgive my wife of adultery. Not only that, I was asked to forgive the man as well. It took me nearly 9 years to do this but I did do it and am still married to the same woman now 36 years. I do know that the Lord never required me that I then needed to get together with this man and his wife for BBQ’s….but He might have and that would probably set me back another 9 years and that’s just what I would have to have done. When you set out on a spiritual path, you either do it or you don’t. Once you see you cannot un-see, you are on a journey that must be fulfilled.
Again I believe your dad did the right thing by staying but not everyone is required to or needs to. Church is largely a dysfunctional group of people. It was their weaknesses that lead them dragging themselves to that door. But going to an alter call is only the beginning of the journey and for those who think that the alter call and church life is the end all are usually the ones that create the problems in the church “culture”.
At this time in my life (8 years now) I’m enjoying being a free agent with no membership affiliation.
For those who think that you must be connected with a church or you’ll grow weak and fall away….Your god is too small.
Love your blog Perry, keep up the good work!
gregg
You know, there are many reasons people leave “church.” I believe probably the main reason is that some have a true reborn spiritual experience which draws them to attend church, and when they become part of a church, they then soon find that it does not measure up to the experience that they had — having a true personal relationship with Christ.
They are hungry to learn the Word, and many study it for themselves, and find that the churches they go to are in many ways just the opposite of what the Word itself says. How can a born again child of God, saved by grace through faith and knowing what Paul says in Galatians, place themselves under Popery or other forms of legalism? Paul says such are accursed!
A true reborn child of God is commanded not to do this. If he or she must depend entirely upon the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to teach him, then that he must do. If churches were just places of fellowship — free and not manipulative, and not legalistic — I would agree that christians should become part of them. But that is not the case! Believers are commanded to come out of that which is apostate.
Amen. You put it out so rightly, dear sister.
Hi Folks, Some things are sad in the Christian life…and many things get talked about that have no place in the christian life. But how about getting back to Jesus Biblical total Principles. From that base we surely must agree it is called the WORD of God as is written in the Bible…some call this DOCTRINE and that is true for it is doctrine. It is not good enough to read the WORD one MUST STUDY THE WORD. This may not be easy but it is worth it.
One should NOT read a paraphrase or a wrong translation as some ARE inclined to be such as the Seventh Day Adventist so-called “Clear Word” what a shocker book.
If you can not come to grips with the King James Bible then try the New American Standard Version for more current words.
But di come back to learning at least the basic doctrines.
The One thing that is totally missing in the above tale is:- There is no mention of following what Jesus says…BIG MISTAKE
It is vital that one DOES NOT make FEELINGS let alone actions for the bases of there opinion because if we do then we are not basing our principles on GODS WORD but on our own FEELINGS…NOW GO LOOK THIS UP FOLKS…OUR FEELINGS, DOINGS, AND SELF OPINIONS ARE…CARAL AND NOTHING MORE THAN FILTHY RAGS.
It is because most folk act on THEIR CARNAL opinion instead of THE WORD OF GOD having been learned when we are in harmony with the HOLY SPIRIT by “CONFESSION OF SIN read 1John 1:9 “, only then can one take in the WORD of GOD to the heart/ MIND. Because this is NOT done therefore there is much fighting even in christondon.
When one reads the WORD of GOD without the teaching of the HOLY SPIRIT (1John 1:9)then ones knowledge IS CARNAL and therefore WRONG and far removed from GOD for:-
“The carnal mind is at emnity with GOD” Nor can the carnal mind even begin to understand the ways of GOD.
GOD’s WORD clearly states the carnal mind is at odds with GOD and is also against GOD.
“Your ways are not MY WAYS and MY WAYS are not your ways neither can they meet.”
Hence “FEELINGS” are no help or guide for trusting in learning TRUTH when learning from GOD’S WORD/Scripture…just as learning by the Holy Spirit is useless without confession each time one comes to learn scripture.
Human feelings equal Carnal thinking against GOD…
God’s word is worth the thought don’t you think.
That is what is missing in Anne Rices thinking and in that of the above atory teller.
By the way it is also missing in the Catholic Church for they to put human opinion before the DOCTRINAL leading/teaching of THE HOLY SPIRIT in 1 John 1:9.
So knowledge is not is NOT always true is it…
That is why NOSIS IS NOT EPIGNOSIS is it.
Kindest regards….Dr. col
Dr. Col,
I’m interested in your comments especially with regards to translation eg the Clear Word. Could I have your e-mail address. Mine is gracy4000@yahoo.co.uk. Thanks.
I’m gay and, though I don’t really consider myself a Christian, I’m definitely more sympathetic to Christianity than much of the gay community, who actually seem to regard Christianity as the enemy (while still demanding the right to get married IN THE CHURCH…interesting;). Thus, I’m quite familiar with being an outsider, both as a homosexual and as someone interested in religion.
That said, I find it a bit suspect that Anne Rice claims to have “quit being a Christian” and then says “My faith in Christ is central to my life”. Isn’t a Christian, by definition, someone who has faith in Christ? For that matter, isn’t Christianity simply the state of having faith in Christ, i.e. being a Christian?
I don’t know what prompted Anne Rice to make this claim, but I can’t imagine it was much worse than what you and your dad went through, Perry! (Kudos for how you handled it, BTW.) By comparison, Rice’s generic claims about “this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group” seem more like an excuse than a reason, though I won’t speculate on what they might be an excuse for!
I would also like to comment on this: “When we who were mistreated gather in opposition to those who did us wrong, we inevitably become like those whom we judge”. Unfortunately, we live in a culture where “gathering in opposition” is accepted and even celebrated, far more than it should be. I’ve seen it happen before and now I see it happening again, especially though by no means exclusively in the gay community. And yet, pointing out the “inevitable” consequences is like the secular equivalent of blasphemy.
I hope Anne Rice gives the church another chance, even if she ends up leaving again, as long as it’s on friendlier terms. I would not be surprised, though, if she finds it easier not to.
Christianity is a very loose term and by definition and different from one mind to the next.
I have done what Anne Rice has done; I have turned my back on the “culture” of Christianity but not on Christ Himself. It took a long time for me to see that the two are different, church “culture” and God are two separate things, one is created by man the other (God) created man.
A quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group is what I too have personally found and also have seen documented in history.
I didn’t even comment on the “culture” of Christianity, which I agree is far from perfect. I just went by the dictionary definition. The point I was trying to make is that, no matter what Anne Rice says, belief in Christ defines Christianity.
Also, since my original post, I discovered Rice’s reason for leaving and it confirmed my suspicion, that it wasn’t as bad as what Mr. Marshall and his father went through. In fact, I sadly suspect that many other posters reflexively sided with Ms. Rice due to political correctness. I humbly submit that, by sticking it out, the elder Marshall was eventually able to work things out and even bring Mr. G around, whereas Rice succeeded only in preaching to the choir.
Who is more worthy of admiration, he who seeks enlightenment for himself alone, or he who seeks it for all?
Gotcha yes and I agree with the definition you described. Usually when people say Christianity though they are referring to and consider it by the loose definition, the church. I can’t really add more to Anne Rice because I’ve never sat down and heard from her own tongue but what little I’ve read, it sounded like that was her definition too. When that mistake is made, people throw the baby out with the bath water. I doubt that someone of Anne Rice’s stature would have been jacked around like Mr. Marshall did but I suspect she “saw” things going on to the other Mr. Marshall’s out there that get pummeled by the church. I saw this kind of thing over and over AND over, it’s nothing new and sadly not unusual. My last years of membership I held a leadership position and had a front row seat.
Time will tell if Anne Rice’s experience will have preached to more than the choir. Throwing a large rock in the pond does garner attention if it is only people that grapple with the same thoughts Anne has. There is a large number in the church that struggle with these same thoughts and feeling but often feel condemned and unsupported if even hinting at them. With that comes isolation and many just fade away and drop out especially those that hold the common definition of Christianity. We can not condemn Anne’s move to have no value, I can see where people like her would feel validated and realize that they’re not crazy or of bad seed.
BTW I have a gay friend like yourself that loves God and seeks to know. I applaud you in your quest.
My other gay friends are atheists so you’re very rare.
gregg
Gregg,
I turned my back too though it was a long time ago when the school priests couldn’t answered my nasty questions about creation, souls and so on back then- rationally. I believe that you’re wrong when you mention that Church and God are separate things. They are both the same- diff faces from same coin, because both Church & God are our own creations. That is why we are what we are. We thought up that creating something above all would take away from us all those adjectives Rice mentioned. History clearly tells us that we were wrong. Who can tell otherwise? It is time to look into ourselves and solve the puzzle instead of looking for someone else to do our job. Let’s do not waste more of our precious time and find out- finally, the remedies we need as specie. We are on our own in this awesome world and must keep it up like it just because this is heaven….Life. On this planet we will live. Off this planet we will…stare? As history tells again we are Creators not viewers.
You may believe as you wish Jose it really doesn’t matter to me. As for God I can only disagree with you up to my own experience so there could be no convincing you, I cannot give you my experience.
I have had too many supernatural events take place in my life that leaves my critical mind in the dust. I am confident this God is real and is beyond any description and is outside any box that man tries to put him in and is even without containment between the covers of a book. To completely understand this God even to whether this God exists or not, requires ALL Knowledge which in our vainest aspirations we do not have. I just know what has happened to me again and again defies explanation. So in that, I know I didn’t imagine this God into being because this God is beyond anything I could possibly imagine.
David, I am not gay but I support what you say, especially in the second paragraph. Even if it can be very “technical” I consider it true. (By the way I am a believer)
On the matter of being part of a church… Well, the True Church is an Spiritual Communion, or Union, where every one’s person is respected (I don’t care how much people is goign to smile or shout reading that) Which is not limited to the “visible churchs”, neither as “only those being in this (visible) community (you put the name you want to put here)” nor as “only those who are out side of that (visible) community” are real christians. (I don’t know if I expressed clearly. English is my second lanaguage)
On the topic of gays and Christianity, the firt ethiopic christian -ethiopic christiandom was the first african one and the oldest nowadays- was an eunuch, and thus probably gay, converted by the apostle Phillip, according to the Book of Acts of the Apostles…
“A eunuch and thus probably gay”? How exactly did you come to that conclusion? Thanks for the rest of it, though!
Thanks for this. You are a tender and humble person. You remind me of what Timothy Keller says in “The Prodigal God” about how my fellow Christians should recognize humbly that throughout life we will know unbelievers who are in fact better people than us. With God it isn’t right vs. left or even necessarily right vs. wrong. First and foremost its humble vs. proud. Of course, if the Bible is to be believed, I think it makes clear the ultimate humility God requires is submission to His will that, whether we suffer or prosper, we trust His Son’s righteousness for our acceptance in Him and not in our own righteousness. Nobody, regardless of how good,Christian or otherwise, deserves to be in God’s presence. But a lot of good people never will because their otherwise good hearts aren’t humble towards God. I wonder how many “Christians'” hearts truly are.
Perry,
You say that the day you forgive another person is the day you stop being a victim of whatever they did to you. I have learned that to be true, and I have the Bible verses to back that up.
But this is the first time I have heard that the day you forgive anther person is the day new blessings get released into their life. Can you share the scripture behind that please?
Thanks!
“Love your enemies and bless those who persecute you.”
You can’t bless someone until you’ve forgiven them first.
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.”
Perry,
Really what good can do to this world those words?
In practice no one will love their enemies, either bless neither forgive them. People may claim that following these ideas the world would change for the better but it proof it didn’t. I am soaking my mind looking for a non biblical example where those words made good. I feel inside me that there must be at least one case but I don’t find it.
We humans created our gods and the heavens in order to be bad and not otherwise. Think about it.
Hello Mary,
Here’s another angle to in regards to your second paragraph:
Job 42: 7-16
The mercies of God came on Job’s friends when Job (forgave and) prayed for them. Job’s prayer could not be answered if it wasn’t genuine.
While I can relate to the situation, and in fact have had many similar experiences in the faith community, I have also had just as many horrid experiences in the secular world. Not only in the workplace, but in social groups and from people at stores, at the beach and so on that I really didn’t even know. People can be horrible wherever you go.
The bottom line is that people are imperfect, hypocritical and self serving. Even Christians. Especially me, and I dislike it more in myself than in others.
Perry is right, forgiveness is the answer, not departure or hopping from community to community.
Jesus told us to expect suffering.
Perry, please quickly go grab Ann Rice if you can. She should remain FIRM IN HER BELIEF. Her vision of Christianity will definitely make her to be a Christian. Her denouncing atheism provoked issues in the satanic world, they want her back. She has a very superior understanding of what ought to be, she had hopes of getting a feel of that understanding, but it is being obstructed. There are very very few Christians among all who claim to be. She ran because the ‘Christians’ she met were not leaving a Christian life. One of satans battle field is in/the Church. Many in there are under satanic directives/manipulations. Anne should realize that it does not come as a surprise if some of the top clergy in that parish are in some satanic cult. She should find somewhere to fellowship, remain calm and keep asking for the directives of the Holy Spirit. If she asks fervently in prayer the Holy Spirit will tell her where to fellowship. The Holy Spirit will introduce her to the real Christians.
Commnet
Being a Christian can be tough. Soon after I was converted I was very offended when a pastor was very critical of a member for marring a woman from another church. At that point I pretty much stopped attending church for 5 years. (There were some other issues) But there is always some other problem. Much later I became angry with a pastor who had a large portion of the church excommunicated because the wanted to have a required business meeting. Then the guy conducting the excommunication service placed a curse upon those who were excommunicated. That was over the top. I did make an attempt to bury the hatchet in that case, but as I see more and more of this sort of nonsense, my anger with the church only intensifies. Can’t we see that we are ” wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked “? (Revelation 3) My anger is not directed at our misguided leaders so much as it is toward Satan and to the church as a whole for accepting his dominion. dale
“Because the wanted” should be “because they wanted”
Dear Perry,
This is my first experience with your “Coffeehouse Theology”, and I enjoyed reading about Anne Rice, and your testimony, and all of the coments made by others.
I have left three churches in my life, but it wasn’t because the congregations were fighting, etc. The first one I left was Presbyterian and it was over abortion. I am vehemently opposed to abortion, and the General Assembly was sanctioning it. I could not be a physical or financial part of that church any more, so I left. That church broke apart in a few years and it isn’t a church any more. I don’t know why others left, only why we did. It was difficult to leave the church I was raised in, and my grandfather had been a pastor in, but as I said I couldn’t be a part of it any longer.
The next one I left was because of the pastor. The church split and we didn’t go with the 1% majority because the pastor stayed with them. He was more of what I heard someone call a “preacher type feller”. I’ll let it go at that. That
church failed, also, in a few years; I don’t know why those people left, either.
The last one I left was because of the pastor, not because of
dissention among the members. Well, as humans with normal human weaknesses, there will always be a little gossip, a little power struggle, but overall the church moved as a body
doing the work of the Lord. The ones who left were all elderly, because the pastor had no use for us. He didn’t seem to realize that the church needs ALL ages, not just the young ones. True the young ones are more fun, and can do more hard work than the old timers, but the older ones have raised their families, paid for homes, retired and know what their income will be. They aren’t strapped with beginner salaries, paying for homes, cars, furniture, braces, various
lessons for kids, or whatever, so by then they have matured enough to learn to tithe, and to give for extra things the church needs. That pastor left when the money wasn’t coming in to pay his salary. I have no idea where he is, but they have another, and the church is still going. I am glad, too, because after an inheritance I gave a substantial gift aside from our tithe, and I want to see that used in serving the Lord.
We formed a new church, and I guess we are still in what is referred to as “the honeymoon stage” for a church. We began with 64 and in seven years we have over 450, and it is a great church. There is so much DONE by this congregation, and so much love and concern and caring, that any little differences are so minimal as not to be worried about.
I’m not so foolish as to believe there will never be any complaints, or power struggles, or even unforgiveness, because we are the “sick ones” who need the physician. That is what Jesus is, and our love for Him, because He first loved us, and gave His life “as a ransom for many”, will help us to move along and overcome any problems. We have a great pastor. I never fail to tell him so after every service, and let him know I appreciate him and love his sermons.
Someone wrote to you and criticized, or ridiculed, people who speak in tongues. I have not received that gift of the Holy
Spirit – we don’t all receive every gift – but it IS real, so we should not ridicule those who have that gift.
I look forward to other issues of Coffeehouse Theology.
Hello Everybody,
a frequent motive, both in Perry’s article and in the comments, I notice, is “Pastors”.
Now this is beginning to annoy me even more than it’s been so far.
Just who the heck (please excuse my use of the word, just doesn’t sound right without it) ARE Pastors?
If I’m right, there’s one mention of them in Scripture.
Perhaps the influence of these guys, which (as logically follows) must be largely man-made, is another contributory reason for the Body’s so many ills?
Wow!! I have been reading through these comments regarding Anne Rice and her dilemma, and I really feel compelled to offer what many of you may think is an alien perspective on the matter. First, Perry, I whole heartedly applaud your father’s perseverance. Christ tells us many times in the gospels that we will be hated by the world for following Him, and that those that sacrifice for Him on this side will be rewarded in heaven. I have no doubt of your father’s rich rewards.
In addressing Mrs Rice’s issue, it is hard to choose a place to begin because her dilemma is so all encompassing. Had she been graced by the Lord to fully comprehend all that the bible teaches us she may not have had such a troubled experience with her church. Unfortunately, you can’t just pick up a Bible and “get religion”. The Lord only calls to belief those that He calls. You may pick up a bible and read it from cover to cover and understand some of its basic principles, but without grace you will never understand His word in the depth it is actually expressed in the bible. You see, this life and this world are not about you and I, they are all about Him. Many modern churches don’t understand that. They are interested in attracting “numbers” to their churches by almost any means possible. They attract audiences, they don’t offer a home to believers. People attending those churches do so because it makes them feel good, and in result the individual usurps the Lord’s importance in His own house.
This brings rise to, and the “universal church” has been guilty of fostering it from the start, a single thread of insidious philosophy. Modern churches, in promoting a “feel good and all about you” attitude, fall into the trap of suggesting that you can work your way into heaven by doing things. Modern Churches seem blind to the fact that the only way to the Father is through the Son, and the only way to belief in the Son is through grace which only the Lord grants. The 1689 can give you a slew of references that can be found in the bible, in the chapter on Effectual Calling.
In truth, there is nothing you can do to ensure your salvation without His grace. More to the point, the dichotomy exists in that a works based philosophy assumes that you have a hand in your own salvation, but the Bible never states that can happen. (Read the first couple of verses in Romans 4.) If you can accomplish salvation through your own efforts then why did Christ die for us…what do we need the Lord for? Wow…that makes sense, doesn’t it.
In focusing on this “all about the individual” philosophy, modern churches contribute to a selfish based outlook that permeates every element of a parishioners life from work to marriage and family. Selfishness like money is the root of all evil, and is most certainly at the heart of all sin. So where does that leave many modern churches, and where does that leave Anne? Well, it leaves the churches fighting amongst themselves because their fundamental beliefs are not scriptural, and it leaves people like Anne, disillusioned.
I have gone on enough now and will close simply by suggesting that if you find yourself drawn to a clearer understanding of the bible, then read it. To further help you along your journey in faith read JC Ryle’s Books on the Gospels, and anything by Spurgeon. And then, look for a church that holds to the principles which those two men have expounded…it will be hard to find.
Cheers, and God Bless!
Dear G Fry:
That is correct , it is about Jesus, I don’t see any wisdom in the actions or words of Mrs. Rice. Wisdom has little to do with education , it is seeing things God’s way and I see no evidence of that in her.
Well said…
Thanks, I couldn’t agree with you more, my best reading so far. Cheers, God bless you too.
Perry. Thank you so much for sharing your story. A fine example for us to follow.
.
There is a great book called “God Has a Wonderful Plan for Your Life” that one can read or listen to for free at http://freewonderfulbook.com/ that speaks to these things.
.
God bless you.
I’ve benefited from reading Ann’s comments from her own blog on this difficult stage of transition; I, too, have been in several church institutions and so enjoy sharing stories on this hard theme of rejection, which reminds me of my adolescence with its pain. Growth has its periods of unfair and hard change; choosing to persist in organised protestant and catholic/orthodox churches without brooding in isolation has allowed me to meet some fine, exemplary men and women—stars among the darkness of the present church, as well as to introduce our children to a living, tolerant, and ever-serving triune Creator.
Why would a Christian spend so much time promoting a person who makes it clear their own feelings and emotions are the authority, not the word of God.
Sadly the Catholic Church, as many others have as well , long ago abandoned the truth of scripture as Christ presented it for a humanistic, feel good , politically correct humanism.
One cannot read the Gospels and come away with the idea that if you take a stand for Christ people will support you . Jesus said we would be hated , persecuted and killed and every few minutes a Christian somewhere dies for their faith. In Laos recently all the Christian families were driven into the countryside and then their rice crops destroyed leaving them in danger of starvation . People don’t want to hear the truth , they do not want to be confronted about their sin and they don’t want to be told that only Jesus Christ holds the keys to heaven but we are commanded to tell them just that.
Mrs. Rice wants a church that even secularists and atheists won’t object to , the true church is hated , they hung our Lord on a tree so why do you expect to be admired for your “tolerance” ?
I believe (correct?) that Ann Rice left the Catholic Church. Which to many is ‘The Church’, it is identified as ‘Catholic’ first and then as Christian second. “…and they were first called Christians in Antioch…” not ‘Catholic’. But I do suppose that if she had gone to any given ‘Christian’ (Protestant) church the reaction might have been the same…
I suppose that if she had really had ‘made the plunge’ she would not have left the hospital…all though there are probably many more patients walking the street then in any local congregation.
So is it a case of ‘throwing the baby out with the bathwater’?
It’s interesting that a few years ago Bob Dylan got it right in his song ‘Gotta Serve Somebody’. Does that mean Dob Dylan is a Christian… Don’t know…;
http://www.henrymakow.com/does_bob_dylan_worship_satan_1.html
There will be many casualties before the war is over.
We don’t have to go down with the ship.
“Catholic” Can be translated as both “Universal” and “Following the Whole (doctrine)” Because it wtarts with a preposition with many meanings. But I admit I find it a little offensive when people says that “the catholic church is not christian”, because… I am a catholic :D
Now, seriously, I think non-catholic christians should consider the “middle name” of that Church: APOSTOLIC. Following the teachings of the apostles, the witnesses of christ.
The truth is all in the WORD OF YAHUWA
such an interesting article. i can (unfortunately) relate to perry’s mother. i suffered a head injury at such a place in time (52 years ago) that i became diagnosed with all sorts of things that really didn’t respond to the medications, as it was injury. unfortunately, i received the message loud and clear that i wasn’t really ‘appropriate’ for the church setting. and i wasn’t. i probably never will be, as i get my feelings hurt way too easily, wear my emotions on my sleeve, etc….but, i remain thankful for my ability to give and receive forgiveness, and i also am thankful that people understand on some level what it is like to suffer trauma from well-meaning folks.
mary edwards