In another post, bestselling author Anne Rice told you her story – how, through historical research, she became convinced the facts support a real Jesus who rose from the dead. She explains how and why she left atheism to embrace hope.
Then, in 2010, she left the church. She said:
“For those who care, and I understand if you don’t: Today I quit being a Christian … It’s simply impossible for me to ‘belong’ to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I’ve tried. I’ve failed. I’m an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else.
“My faith in Christ is central to my life. My conversion from a pessimistic atheist lost in a world I didn’t understand, to an optimistic believer in a universe created and sustained by a loving God is crucial to me. But following Christ does not mean following His followers. Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity and always will be, no matter what Christianity is, has been or might become.”
Many have asked my thoughts about Anne Rice’s departure from the Catholic Church. Let me tell you my own story of struggling with quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious church people.
When I was 12, my mom went “bipolar.” Manic depressive with mild schizophrenia.
Except that for a year and a half, nobody knew that’s what was wrong with her. We just knew she was impossible to live with.
The fights, the arguments and contention would start as soon as I got home from school every day and stretch past bedtime.
Our entire family was bedlam for a year and a half.
Mom would swing from being your best friend to your worst enemy at the slightest provocation. I’d come home from school and find she’d tossed boxes of my stuff in the garbage. She’d say embarrassing things to my friends.
She insisted dad wasn’t really her husband. She said he was a man who looked just like Bob and she was sentenced to live with him until the ‘real’ Bob came back. When he came home from work she would hurl accusations at him. My brother and sister and I would complain bitterly to him about how she was treating us.
It was almost impossible to not get sucked into some kind of conflict every day. Home was the most dangerous place a kid could be.
My dad was taking her to doctors and counselors but nobody seemed to be able to arrive at any conclusion. Meanwhile, people watched us with a judgmental eye.
My dad was an associate pastor at a very large church in Nebraska, 2000+ members. Dad started getting heat from his boss, the senior pastor, Mr. G, who didn’t like the fact that one of the pastors’ wives was “out of line.”
Mr. G quoted the scripture that says a pastor should be in control of his family and told dad if he didn’t straighten out mom’s problem, he might have to leave.
Dad pursued answers and eventually got mom to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist diagnosed her with a chemical imbalance and bipolar disorder.
That trip to the psychiatrist was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Psychiatrists and psychologists, in Mr. G’s opinion, were the new high priests of a secular order that would dismiss all human ills as curable illnesses. Psychiatrists didn’t have the courage to call evil by its real names – SIN and DISOBEDIENCE. They existed to give people like my mom an alibi. Mr. G declared Mom insubordinate and rebellious.
Literally on the same day the diagnosis came back, Mr. G and Mr. J, the pastors of our church, visited our house to deliver the news. We all sat in the living room as they announced, “We’ve asked your father to resign from his responsibilities. He’s no longer qualified to be a pastor.”
I listened without much comment. I was 13. My older sister, however, was livid. At 18 she’d formed definite opinions about what had transpired. She started sobbing and retorted angrily to Mr. J: “If people knew what YOUR daughter does when she’s out at night, they’d be forcing you to resign too.”
Mr. J said, “We’re not here to talk about me or my family today, Robin. We’re here to talk about you.”
Earlier that day, dad had been brought before the Board of Elders to hear their final verdict. One by one, they agreed with Mr. G: “Bob, you’re not in control of your family. We’re sorry, you have to step down.” Mr. G demoted dad and announced to 2,000 people the following Sunday that dad had “resigned” so he could “attend to problems with Betty and the family.”
The next months were painful indeed. Few knew the real story. Some gathered around us. Most only knew something disgraceful had happened though and kept their distance. We felt like pariahs.
Dad couldn’t hang with his same friends anymore. He wasn’t invited to lunch at work. They shut him out of staff meetings. They hadn’t cut his pay, but he did lose a tax deduction. Less money to go around.
A couple months later I got into a fist fight at school. Came home with two black eyes. Bad report cards and complaints from teachers. All this added to the mounting case against dad.
He would come home from work every night and sit on the couch and sob. Mom told him it was all his fault for being such a cruel tyrant.
Dad followed through with the psychiatrist’s advice to get her on a prescription drug. Literally within a few days, mom transformed from defiant and combative to quiet and cooperative. The bizarre behavior stopped completely. Not only that, she went from being angry and defensive to feeling deep remorse about her erratic behavior.
Soon it became clear that Mr. G torpedoed dad simply because mom had a medical problem – a chemical imbalance – and that mom’s behavior wasn’t “sin” or “rebellion.” It was a well-understood mental illness. She couldn’t help herself.
Dad was hurt and humiliated and felt abandoned. He desperately wanted to bail. A lot of people told him he should quit his job, especially our relatives who understood the scope of the situation.
Dad thought about pulling up stakes, moving elsewhere. He decided to stick it out. To argue his case and vindicate himself.
Few men had the balls to stand up to Mr. G, but dad did. As mom’s condition improved, he said, “Mr. G, you made a wrong judgment and you need to apologize to my wife.”
Furthermore dad made Mr. G write her a letter of reconciliation, because by this time mom had become terrified of Mr. G. He had, after all, the ability to singlehandedly destroy dad’s career.
Nine months after dad had been demoted, he was reinstated.
Two weeks later dad was diagnosed with cancer.
Had dad cut and run, he would’ve been in a newcomer in some new environment, maybe even starting over in a brand new city, surrounded by strangers.
But since he’d stuck it out and vindicated himself, we were surrounded by a faith community that lent us help with dinners and financial support and prayers and encouragement.
Dad had major surgery. He was cancer free for a year and a half, then it came back. Treatments were unsuccessful, and as it became clear that he wasn’t going to make it, Mr. G secretly mailed a letter to everyone else at church. He explained how this summer might be Bob’s last and it would be really nice to raise some money, so Bob can take a trip to the West Coast.
$10,000 came in. In 1986 that was enough to not only take dad to California, a place he’d always longed to visit, but it was enough to get all of us to Alaska and Hawaii too. Dad experienced a 5 week “last hurrah” with his wife and kids that July.
That October, he died. I was 17.
I can’t tell you how many things I’ve wanted to quit, and didn’t, because dad wouldn’t throw in the towel and walk away from a bunch of quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous people.
And say what you want about ’em, when you’re in the oncology ward with terminal cancer, those are the same people that will probably be with you as you pass from here to the other side.
They will still have their faults and you will have yours, but… blood is thicker than water.
A faith community can become just as close and even closer than your biological family. It’s why they can hurt you so easily.
But there’s no such thing as a real community, or even a real relationship, that isn’t vulnerable. Painfully so sometimes. During our special vacation to California, dad told me that getting rejected and blamed for a mess he had no control of had been worse than dying of cancer was now.
Peter asked Jesus, how many times should I forgive my brother? Seven times?
Jesus said, “Seventy times seven. That’s how many times you should forgive.”
What do you forgive people for, anyway??
For being quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous. For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14-15.
After the potluck dinners have ended and people start throwing chairs at each other, it’s so easy to pull the plug and run. So many marriages don’t work out, it’s so easy to just live with someone and see how things turn out.
It IS easier.
It’s easier at first.
But when a series of relationships fail, they rip your heart to shreds just as much whether you were married or not. It just seemed like not ‘committing’ yourself lessened the risk. If your “common law wife” leaves you after 10 years, how is that any less painful than if your legally married wife leaves you? Just because it’s ‘unofficial’ doesn’t make it less perilous.
I’ve had to make multiple passes of forgiveness about Mr. G. A few years later when more fiascoes erupted, I had to let go again.
A few years after that, it occurred to me that my dad might not have even gotten cancer in the first place had he not endured two years in such a toxic, unsupportive, humiliating environment. That’s speculation, but still I had even more forgiveness I had to do.
A year ago I realized I needed to confront yet another layer of unforgiveness within myself. I had made a conscious choice to let go of the past, when I suddenly felt God saying to me, “The Father’s Heart is going to be poured out over Mr. G and his church.”
The day you forgive anther person is the day new blessings get released into their life. The day you forgive another person is the day you stop being a victim of whatever they did to you.
Dear Anne Rice, I greatly esteem your writing and your scholarship. I commend you for your adroit case for the historical Jesus. I appeal to you as a brother and member of the imperfect body of Christ, that to exit and publicly denounce them is to embrace quarreling… hostility… and public disputes.
From an individual view it’s all justified. But isolation makes islands of all of us. When we who were mistreated gather together in opposition to those who did us wrong, we inevitably become like those whom we judge.
A few years ago I visited an old college buddy in Washington DC. He was an exquisitely smart, seminary educated man who’d been a pastor in a Protestant evangelical church. He’d recently converted from Protestant to Eastern Orthodox.
Eastern Orthodox??? Most Americans don’t even know what that is.
I was dying to hear his explanation. “I don’t know what Peter’s going to tell me, but it’s sure gonna be interesting.”
I wasn’t disappointed. We sat up late three nights in a row exploring his decision. I don’t have time for the whole story now, but one of the points he made was this: “Protestants have ‘splitting off’ in their very DNA. As soon as they disagree, they leave First Baptist Church to go start Second Baptist Church. Then some of those people split off and form Third Baptist Church and on and on it goes.
“Catholics and Orthodox people don’t automatically do that. They prize unity. I have a bishop over me and he’s like a father to me and my wife. We live in community and in covenant together. He’s responsible to look out for us and we choose to be in a trusting mutual relationship.”
Whether you’re Protestant or Catholic or Orthodox… or if you’re on the outside looking in… I want to encourage you: living the nomad life is less demanding in the short term but lonelier in the long term.
As you make forgiveness a way of life, when you choose to live in community, you earn a kind of compound interest of grace. Months or years do not always reveal the fruit of that. It grows evident over decades. Community is the only place where you truly learn to forgive and learn to love.
The only way we exorcise our demons – both figuratively and literally – is in committed relationships with other people. Those around us are mirrors. They show us our faults, and we theirs. As we bathe those faults in mercy and forgiveness we become the people we aspire to be.
Perry Marshall
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Thank you for sharing your truly personal testimony. It is so important to remember that we are called to forgive, not to determine who is worthy of our forgiveness. God is both the just judge and merciful redeemer.
We have just been told here that “Selfishness like money is the root of all evil, and is most certainly at the heart of all sin.”
This is the most unhelpful of comments. I find it evil in itself. In any case, it is “Love of Money” that is evil, not money itself.
The individual is the unit, many of whom make up any group, be they Christians or any other group.
Any one individual who fails to care for themselves properly can never care for anyone else at all.
My very health, both physical and mental, not to mention spiritual, is neglected if I fail to keep myself in the right place in all my relationships. And I am sur I mostly have been in the wrong place.
It is mortally dangerous to be so unselfish – or should I say so un-self-concerned – as to put other people first al the time.
So do not tell me it is “Selfish” to look after myself enough.
Or I will never find enough self concern to reach out to Christ for help.
Hello Bronte
I stand corrected…you are absolutely right in suggesting that it is the love of money rather than money itself that is evil. Nor was I advocating that a life of poverty is necessary for salvation. Yet there is the “eye of the needle” proverb to consider, and if you examine the Lord’s example, that is the state which he maintained for our salvation. Impoverished, beaten, hated and ridiculed by us, He still loved us so much that He offered a method of salvation accessible to each and every one of us…and he died to give it to us.
Perhaps Paul Tripp offers insight into the “selfishness”
dilemma most succinctly in a question he voiced during a Marriage counseling seminar I recently attended…”How do our hearts, our worship and our relationships tie together?”
If our hearts are selfish than we will be trying to get what we can out of what we worship, and out of our relationships. However, if our hearts are in Christ then
our worship and our relationships will follow suite.
Cheers
Gord
Christianism is a personal, and interpersonal religion, so there isn’t a real problem with the self.
Actually, a selfish one doesn’t have an over developed self, but an underdeveloped, since is unable to stay with others openly and at the same level. Needs to feel “better”, more “important”. Is the adult, with a well stablished personality, who can Give from the best of him/her.
Reading Christ’s letters to the 7 churches in Rev 2 and 3, He has something against most of them, especially the last lukewarm church because of its materialism and self-satisfaction. Christ is actually not in the church but outside knocking. For any who are struggling with basic issues of faith and belief, please take a look at the best non-denominational booklet on how to be saved. Nothing to buy, just pick a chapter and read it at http://www.whiteestate.org/books/sc/sc.asp
LOOKING FOR REAL CHRISTIANS that will help us
we are cutting wood in a bush twenty acers
and need a snowmobile utility sled for hauling it out
you say you care you say you love
REALY the banks bail out gm and chrysler
the fed prints more money
but NO bank lends money to normal people
I work sixteen hours a day cutting wood
WE NEED a sled to get the wood out
so you say your a christian try putting your
faith where your money is
WE NEED 10,600
and will pay it all back at UNBIBLICAL interest of ten percent
will anyone help us?
integrity@cyg.net
Should this surprise anyone?
Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law. (Luke 12:51-53)
dear perry .whats your proved our strugist story explain around the world ? my inner voice
Several comments from hurting folks who responsed positively to what I posted leads me to suggest a couple other chapters, “Help in Daily Living” and “In Contact with Others,” both from a Christian holistic book of health and healing and non-denominational (chapters 40, 41) http://www.whiteestate.org/books/mh/mh.asp (nothing for sale)
Perry,
I feel convicted after reading this post. After forty years active in building one church or another, wherever I happen to be living, many of them as a teacher, elder, pulpit minister, I find myself now having not even attended church for over a year. Something snapped in me after some years in the “Christian” publishing industry where I saw very little originating from the spirit of Christ and very much that I also recognized as patterns and profiles of business and purpose in “successful” churches in America. I’ve ghostwritten several books for national ministries that I can’t say I still admire due to things I know.
When I saw those words of Anne Rice about following Christ not needing to mean following His followers, I felt a little rush of self-justification for my own desertion. “Yea, that’s how I feel!” Before that I reasoned that churches in America are in such synchrony with the secular culture that nothing pure remains. I told myself that my hope for returning one day may depend on severe social crisis coming to Western Civilization and especially to America that would force the rediscovery of sober, genuine, matter-of-life-and-death community and wash away, through common suffering, all our pretentiousness, idleness, self-entitlement, self-assurance and insufferable arrogance. But I know deep down that my abandonment and judgement of the body is just as arrogant. I’m at a bit of a loss for how to find my way back to a healthy if struggling relationship with a Christian community. But I suppose it will have to start with some small simple steps forward and some prayerful expectation that a path will present itself. Anyway, thanks for the words of wisdom.
Dan
Dan, I am not the moderator, I am no one. But I dare to advise you this: Don’t wait for the right circumstancies; if you seek, you will find the examples you are looking for in persons belonging to ANY denomination. Feel in spiritual communion with them now.
Dan, I know you will find your way. Study the many materials available today regarding the origins of Christianity, and you will see that there have been many varieties of Christian belief, some of which were suppressed during the Dark Ages. I am now reading books that advocate the recovery of that part of our heritage that contributed to the ethics of Jesus, even before his arrival in the first century. There are many paths to wisdom and to a divine presence that embraces the best of all religions. One of those paths is the right one for you.
H.G.
Dear Perry,I have been reading your emails for some time now without comments,not because they do not make sense but that they are such truths that requires no disputations but on Ms Anne Rice case(which also I have been following closely)there are questions that requires answers.First was there a time she actually quits atheism?.Secondly was she actually convinced about Christ before she embraced christian faith.Why I ask these questions is because the speed at which she quits the church is faster than the speed at which she embrace the faith.Let me give Ms Anne Rice my advice which am convinced she would have given to me if I were in her position.There has never been a perfect and orderly society even in the atheistic school, the church is not isolated.To accept Christ is to accept his message and to accept his message is to be called a christian and to be a christian is to belong to the body of Christ;the church.You can not divorce the church from Christ.The church is where you live your christian life.Every one is everyone,s mirror reflecting everyone,s shortcomings and by this we learn to tolerate,to endure and to forgive and finally to love one another.Dear Anne Rice you have discovered one truth,there is still one more truth you should discover;the church. Thank you.
jihadist terrorists each time they kill.
Let’s forgive murderers,rapists,child molesters,theives,and drug pushers MUST be forgiven within us; but we should go up to point of even sentencing these NON-humans to death of NEED BE so that HUMAN remain to exist
A human being cannot asimilate what is above his intellect to absorve. The reason why the great Master JESUS used Parables to convey HIS teachings to the thousands who come to hear HIM in the hills of Palestine. THE TRUTH ALWAYS SURFICES but I do not believe mankind would understand it at this moment in time. THE REAL EVENTS IN THE LIFE OF JESUS EXISTE WELL PRESERVED IN AGE OLD PAPYRUS AND DOCUMENTS DEPOSITED IN “ESPECIAL PLACES” IN INDIA, TIBET. GREECE and they contain knowledge that would ASTONISH those who had the opportunity to READ IT and little resembles what has been told to mankind about the life of the greatest emissare of GOD. IN TIME,AS MANKIND EVOLVES AND DEPART FROM THE CHAINS OF THE FALSE PROPHETS THE REAL STORY OF JESUS WILL BE MADE PUBLIC. THERE IS A GOD, A DIVINE MIND/CONSCIOUSSNESS PREVADING ALL AND HUMAN BEINGS CAN CONTACT SUCH MAJESTIC POWER IN THE PRIVACY OF THEIR THOUGHTS.
There is a movie called “Lord Save Us From Your Followers” by Dan Merchant. I bought 5 copies to pass out to frnds/fam. I think it explains a lot.
good day everyone.there should be no quarrelsome,hostile church on the first place. within it are common interest, faith, belief, love and concern. if you didnt met these and other discipline, have soulsearching and evaluation of yourself, never finger pointing, remorse and correct mistakes silently, then reflect…that you will understand how church or community for that matter, exist.
With all due respect to your tragic past and triumphant, if ongoing, victory over it, Mr. Marshall, it seems somewhat disingenuous to compare your own families struggles with narrow-minded fundamentalists who didn’t understand medical and psychological science and thus persecuted your parents in a horrible way, to Ms. Anne Rice, who quit the Church for entirely different reasons–and for reasons significantly less noble than your family would have had a right to claim had they gone that route.
Rice’s problems with the Church (specifically, Catholicism) is that it won’t compromise on teaching the word of God, that truth is truth and sin is sin, even though she doesn’t like it. Because she thinks it’s okay for her son to live a homosexuality, she is at cross-purposes with the historic and enduring teaching of Christianity, and claims that if Christianity doesn’t change, then they’re “dishonest, dishonourable, and immoral.” Not because particular Christians were mean to her, but because of what the Church teaches. This, it seems, is a radically different thing than your own experience, so as moving as it was to read your own testimony, it doesn’t actually seem to address Anne Rice’s defection.
Consider this article at Ignatius Press’ website.
A church is not a club for saints but a hospital for sinners (can’t remember who said that). SO any church will have people you might wish were not there. In my church we have a few people with too much power (undermining the Vicar. Pillars of the church – hold things up and obscure the view (wish I’d thought of that)) and they need all the forgiveness that Jesus demands. This, however does not mean they are to be left to carry on. It is the role of their brothers and sisters in Christ to gently lead them back to the right path (Paul talks of this somewhere). As for leaving a church you disagree with; in London we are blessed with many churches of different denominations and styles of worship but in a small village there may be only one church. What then? If you can’t beat them join them, then beat them. This cynical phrase may have a grain of truth in it, why not try and make things better rather than run away to somewhere where the work has already been done.
Christopehr, it was Jesus who said that: “I didn’t come to pick the healthy ones, but the sicks”. ;)
Dear Perry,
Thank you for sharing this bit of autobiography with us.
What happen to you and what happened to Anne Rice – well, I’ve seen it happen so many times and some of it happened to me also, but I wouldn’t bother you with the details for it would make this comment too long.
My similar experiences did prompt me to start thinking very deeply about the nature of the thing we call ‘Church.’ I started off with the question ‘What should the nature and structure of the Church be?’ I got an eye opener when, as part of my quest, I got hold of Church constitutions. Much to my surprise and shock, I discovered that Churches are required (in South Africa where I live that is the case, but I have reason to believe it applies in most parts of the world) by government to lodge there constitution with the Receiver of Revenue, who, incidently, couldn’t care two hoots about what the church stands for – the Receiver is only interested in who holds the money bag and how much is in it for taxation purposes. From this it emerged also that church constitutions, from the point of view of the secular state, is structurally identical to those of clubs, eg. a golf club.
The I proceeded to ask myself: where is the Scriptural precedent for that, and of course, there isn’t any. That lead me to conclude that there is something seriously wrong with our conception of what Biblically constitutes ‘Church.’ What I eventually arrived at was that the Church is first and foremost an ORGANISM held together by the Holy Spirit, and NOT a MECHANISM, put together and run my Man. Following logically from that (and I’m trying to be cryptically brief here) is that Denominationalism has no Scriptural foundation either. Church is, Scripturally speaking, any congregation of two or more born again believers, be it on an ad hoc basis or otherwise – no more and no less.
Another critical question I ask myself was: if a completely heathen person in a completely heathen country were to happen on a Bible, and upon reading it, become converted and convert others – what would the church structure of such a body of believers be, had they nothing to go on other than the Bible itself? No contact with Western Churches and all their trappings. Well I got my answer from roughly two sources – the biography of Brother Yun from China, called ‘The Heavenly Man’ but, more profoundly from an old book ‘The Sky is Red’ by Geoffrey T. Bull, himself a missionary to China way back in the first half of the previous century. Again, for the sake of brevity, I will not give an exposition here, but I recommend that anyone who seriously wrestles with these questions take the trouble to obtain these two sources.
I happily got saved at the home of a man who ran what best can be described as a little ‘non-denominational fellowship’ at his home (under no ‘authority’ other than the Holy Spirit and the scrutiny of other mature Christians and similar fellowships, the latter ensuring that no undue doctrinal error or straying take place, and though I have (unwisely) moved on to join ‘conventional’ churches subsequently, and burnt my fingers over and over again with them, I now savour the example set by this man and this first fellowship – the joy and freedom we all experienced in that little, pretty much unstructured congregation of believers. ‘Once you have tasted honey you will never again be satisfied with syrup’ they say.
Again, it will take an essay at least ten times as long as this to even begin to explain where I am coming from on this matter, suffice for me to say that, if you adjust your conception of ‘Church’ to be more in line with that of the Bible (the books of Acts having much to say and show in this regard, (if only, as G.T. Bull put it, we had eyes to see and ears to listen) and dispense with the notion of ‘denominationalism’ you will suddenly find that many, many of ones conflicts and confusions in this regards falls away.
When one settles for an alternative model where believing Christians gather on an ad hoc informal basis in homes around God’s Word you encounter the Body of Christ in all its original intended freshness, agility and power – take my word for it. We have excellent tools and resources in the form of concordances and computer software (e-Sword for example, which is completely free) to unlock Scriptural truths in a mighty way without undue intervention from ‘professional clergy.’
Again, I am not entirely opposed to the latter, but my view on them is subtle and complex and for the sake of drawing this entry to a close, I shall refrain from elaborating on this topic any further.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
W.
Very well said. Makes a lot of sense, in my humble opinion.
I’ve read through these comments with appreciation and amazement. It occurs to me that Mr. G in Perry’s story may have been suffering from some form of mental illness, too. If so, that would make it easier to forgive him.
As for Anne Rice, have we lost sight of WHY Anne Rice became disillusioned? It was when a nun approved a therapeutic abortion for a mother who would have left several children motherless if she had died. Then the church “fathers” excommunicated the nun for saving the life of this mother instead of letting both mother and fetus die. It is thus the leadership of the church that made Anne rebel. I’m a Christian who follows the teachings of Jesus rather than the orthodoxy of an institution. My understanding of Jesus is that he would have condoned the nun’s act and censured those men who allot so little value to the lives of women.
You are all your own church! Be the lightkeeper that you are. Do not look to others for confirmation.
Thanks so much for your response and for sharing your story. A lot of excellent responses from your readers as well. I had just read your earlier post on Anne Rice, done a little research with great interest, and determined to read some of her books. A week or two later I read her ‘withdrawal’. I wondered if it was due to her going back to the Catholic church, if the pull of her liberal surroundings was too strong, was she sincere in her commitment (it was hard to believe otherwise), was the church making her family relationships too difficult, or what were all the dynamics of her choice. And how could she, in 10 years, not resolve this? I was thinking “She’s known for her research and intellect.” I don’t believe all Christians or churches would fit the description of “quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious”. In fact, I would say that hasn’t been my experience for the most part in the past 20 years in Evangelical churches. I have found many people to be loving & supportive; I believe the church leaders I’ve known were sincere, diligent, and led by the Holy Spirit. I do understand that standing firm for your belief will cause strong disagreement at some point, and, as you point out in your excellent response, people do quarrel, quit, mistreat, make mistakes, etc – even Christians, unfortunately, me included.
I was sad to read her statement because God designed us to belong to communities. The ‘Church’ is Jesus’ bride. The bible says we’re one body – we can’t just disown all the other parts. Fellowship and team work. The bible also really emphasizes “Love Your Brother”. This works on both sides of the argument, but in context I also read that as in belonging to a community of believers (brothers).
I hope I don’t sound critical of Anne Rice, I sill love her – I just wonder and I am a little sad. Her website doesn’t talk about either experience, unless I missed it. (I did read she had a blog, so I’ll look for that.) I do believe, however, that if she is sincere in her commitment to Christ, she will want to belong to a church body again at some point. And I believe Jesus will continue to walk with her and use her in wonderful ways.
“The church is a whore, but she’s my mother.”
Dear Perry,
I respectfully wonder what you must be thinking after reading these posts, at this point?
The responses are all over the map. One question raised that I never really answered was, where am I in relation to those people and that church today?
About 2 years after all this happened I started going to another church 50 miles away. It was my way of escaping a huge implosion because the church was splitting over somewhat related issues. A 3000 person church breaks into pieces – very painful thing to watch.
We didn’t make a big stink of it, we just quietly left. Going to another town where nobody knew about the chaos was a safe place to heal from the hurt. Then I moved to Chicago and left all that behind.
I visited the old church about 4 years ago. It was pleasant enough, but I did hear things I greatly disagreed with.
I think there are times when you need to stick it out and there are times when you need to find another place to fellowship. I must say though, I flat out disagree with those who choose to live their Christian lives in isolation. I think they are just hiding from their issues. Nobody said this was going to be easy. But relationships are how we grow mature. I think everyone should find a group of people to worship with. Being in a family is tough, but being a hermit is tougher.
Amen Brother!
We could look at the “family” of Jesus, and the disciples….Most are Essenes. The fishing bunch all shared the same “ways”…The innermost circle was KIN and also some were of very similar ways…Outsiders looking “in” at the World in Rebellion.
John the Baptist was His cousin. Four men — James, Joses, Simon, and Judas — are mentioned as the brothers of Jesus.
James, son of Zebedee (died 44AD) was one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus. He was a son of Zebedee and Salome, and brother of John the Apostle
A Mother’s Request
20Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21“What is it you want?” he asked.
She said, “Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom.”
22“You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?”
“We can,” they answered.
23Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”
Matthew20:24 ~ When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
“SEE” through spiritual discernment how momma here wanted special treatment for her kiddies….A FLESHLY act.
We are to BE LAST….
I must absolutely disagree, Perry. For some of us who do not assimilate easily into the ‘herd’, who are different minded (not unChristian), but prone to a more existential viewpoint (as was C.S. Lewis, Kierkegaard, etc.) and a need to feel accepted, attempting to become a part of the family is tortuous. God knew us before He formed us together in our mother’s womb. (Ps. 139) To me this suggests He gave each of us unique qualities to celebrate not to suppress when we become a part of a church family. Unfortunately, I have found, in my 60 years on earth, that each church has its prerequisites and we are to meet them without question. In my opinion, that is how one becomes involved in cults. I love Jesus, I know He exists. Man, on the other hand, is sinful, whether he sits in church, preaches, teaches, or is Pope. If our motives are right, if we are right with Jesus, we must do what we must do as far as church is involved. He, our God, knows our hearts and is able to surround even us exiles with His word, and his disciples when necessary. In the meantime, a writer, Florence King, once said, “Do not judge lest ye be judged a judger.” I try to keep that one close, you know, “as needed”.