This is raised by just about everyone: Priests and ministers, college students and housewives, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers.
It’s one of the hardest questions anybody ever asks.
Just a few days ago, a close friend of mine, Laurin, passed away after a fierce 18 month battle with cancer. What a horrible experience this was for him and his wife Diana.
I’ve visited the slums of Sao Paulo Brazil, where 500,000 homeless street kids sniff glue and steal for a living. Sometimes the police hunt them down and kill them, just to reduce the crime rate.
Last year my wife spent a week in Mozambique where she saw an infant in her mother’s arms, dying of pneumonia in a hospital waiting room. She met hundreds of other kids with malaria and malnutrition. We’ve given some money for a medical clinic, and every bit helps. But the problems are so huge, what little you try to do still seems like a teardrop in the ocean.
If you took all the parties, the humor, the success and happiness in the world, and put it side by side with the suffering and pain, the comparison would be almost absurd.
There’s a lot of sickness and sadness in this world.
How can God let it go on?
Well, I can’t give you an answer. I can only tell you a true story.
~~~
A certain man threatened the Religious Gestapo, who in turn convinced the Roman government that He was a threat to them, too.
His followers were disappointed that He didn’t overthrow the Romans and declare himself King, like the Messiah was supposed to do. So they abandoned Him.
The ancient Romans pioneered what was possibly the most cruel form of torture ever devised by man: Crucifixion. They would drive spikes into their victim’s ankles and wrists, smashing his nerves. He would hang there in blinding sheets of pain, slowly suffocating and dehydrating for days, until he finally expired.
Jesus was whipped and beaten, literally beyond recognition, then nailed to a cross between two common criminals.
One of these criminals was cursing and shouting at Him in a fit of rage: ‘HEY! If you’re the KING, why don’t you get yourself down from there! And US, TOO!!!’
The other guy went along with this… for a little while.
But he saw that Jesus wasn’t hurling insults at his torturers. Instead He was asking God to forgive them (?!).
He sobered up. He said to the other criminal, ‘Hey dude, you and I are here because we deserve it. But this man Jesus has done nothing wrong.’
Then he said to Jesus, ‘Remember me when you take charge of your Kingdom.’
Jesus simply replied, ‘Today you’ll be with me in Paradise.’
~~~
Stop the camera.
What you have here, in this brief conversation, is a snapshot of the entire world.
You have two criminals who have gotten themselves into a horrendous, awful mess. And you have the Son of God, who has not only chosen to live with us in our world of pain and suffering, but has personally taken all of it upon his own shoulders.
Even though he is completely innocent.
One thief refuses to accept any responsibility for his actions. He’s unwilling to admit that he created the very mess that he’s in.
He lives in denial until the bitter end. He grits his teeth and dies in his sin.
The other thief comes clean. He recognizes that Jesus possesses divine authority. He admits his guilt. He is required to do nothing, other than to let go of his pride.
He asks for forgiveness.
Forgiveness granted.
Jesus’ pardon doesn’t make the cross or the agony go away. But finally the struggle ceases and this man crosses the Great Divide. The intense pain dissolves and he steps into a New World, designed by God Himself — with renewed body and soul.
That’s a picture of the entire world, right there. You and I are in this mess together, and we’ve all contributed to it.
We’ve all rejected God in some way or another, we’ve all committed some kind of crime, and we all experience suffering.
The situation is what it is.
So we have a simple choice: Accept that fact that God has suffered with us — or mock him and be furious because the suffering exists in the first place.
Which way do you want it???
The decision is yours. You and I will never get a true ‘answer’ about the pain and suffering we experience in this life. But in the midst of our pain, we have a companion. You and I can have the same conversation with Jesus that this criminal had, and we can experience the same forgiveness. All we have to do is ask, just like the thief on the cross did on that sad day.
~~~
This is the last of the Seven Great Lies of Organized Religion. I pray that I’ve helped to strip away all the baggage that the Religious Gestapo adds to the story and reduce it to the bare essentials. I hope this has stirred your mind and your heart.
Are you trying to strip away the baggage and get to a deeper truth? We’d like to hear from you. Simply submit a comment below.
We often run behind, but will do our best to respond.
Respectfully Submitted,
Perry Marshall
www.CoffeehouseTheology.com
- Read the whole conversation between the two thieves and Jesus
- Hear my extended presentation of the 7 Great Lies
- The prophet Ezra asks God why his people suffer so much. God sends an angel with an answer. Story continues here.
I am catholic originally,but slowly loosing my christian faith.Manly as a result of influences from my protestant friends to read the Old Testament and accept it as divine truth.Catholics are not encouraged to read the bible,but rather it is conveyed to them by the priest in church.
Anyway,I shouldnt have started reading it either.
Yahweh appears to be an exclusivly jewish god,telling his people to kill everybody else until they become foot stools of the jews.Yahweh is clearly a homocidel maniac killing everybody indiscriminatelly starting with the flood,the Jerico massacre and so on.
The Father of Jesus seems to be a totally different god .Jesus states that he didnt come to destroy mankind,but to save them,but even Jesus declares a few times that he had only come to save the lost sheep of Israel.
Its all too jewish to me.I am not a jew and I dont want to be their foot stool.I dont want to rule anybody else,and I dont want any promised land,and anything for free either.I just want to live quetly ,in peace with everybody else,following the norms of a civilised society. I dont have to be saved ,I havent done anything wrong.Some priests .pastors are much worst as I can see.
The truism of a Creator seems to be or is self-evident. The idea that something comes from nothing or that for every action there is and equal and opposite reaction except for creation makes no rational sense.
The original Creator of the universe is the owner of its creature and creation. There can be no moral or “good or evil” attributed to it; it just is. The only “good” of the creation can only be to the understanding on the Creator. Good or bad is irrelevant to the creature or creation.
Part of this seems true for people that create, except much of what they create, even with the intent of good is, “evil”.
This raises an interesting observation.
*The idea of or understanding of good or evil seems to be created for the human creatures of this universe.
According to the Bible it would seem that the Creator wants its creatures to worship the Creator.
This raises a question for me. Did Adam and Eve while walking in the garden with the Creator, how did they worship? Other than simply because the Creator wants or requires worship, why require worship? Of course why design an existence of evil or good for its human creatures? Of course it could simply be “just because” the Creator can do so?
Why create such actors as angels to entice and carry out such evil and rebellion? The Creator is not subject to any law or characteristic of its creation or creature and can simply destroy what it created at any time. Does it not seem to play out well as theater for the Creator?
There are many questions in my mind. I just don’t have the time or mental energy to deal with them. They are deeply troubling to me as well to pose the questions or even think about what I see. But they do seem to go to some final observations. 1)At the end of the drama some of the actors get to be with the Author and Source of the theatrical play and the rest are banished. 2) Love for the Creator by its Creatures seems to be by mostly by threat, duress and coercion.
Yes, then there is Jesus the God-man who puts Himself in the middle of the play to endure what He created with us to save us. I am not trying to be sarcastic, but it seems the irony is plainly there.
I do have more thoughts, but not anymore time or energy for them today.
Dear M Powers
I am the mother of five children. I have done my best to teach them right from wrong. As I understand, God created angels. Satan and Devil which means slanderer and resister of God became arrogant and egotistical. He did not remain subject to his creator and wanted power and glory. He wanted to be worshipped. To achieve this he lied to Adam and Eve. God forewarned Adam and Eve and gave them a command that was not burdensome on them so they would be aided to remain safe within the confines of his love and guidance. To worship God means to show him reverence. If anyone deserves reverence it is the Omnipotent Creator of All Things. God is awesome. He is eternal which I find difficult to envisage. No beginning, always creating, this I find too immense for my delicate mind. I wonder what you or anyone else thinks about this phenomena. “I would like to know”!
About my children. If they became murderers as Adam, Eve and Satan did when they disobeyed God; I would not want to know them. To expand on that they did bring death to all mankind. And after they sinned their 1st born son killed Able the spiritually faithful son who showed reverence or worshipped God in a way that was approved by God. After that people became bloodthirsty, cruel and disobedient just like the 1st parents. That is why God brought about the flood.
God sent his son to deliver us from death caused by the sin of Adam and Eve. He loved us and taught us how to come into a relationship with him so we can become approved by God the Father. He promises eternal life for all who will be obedient and learn to love others. This obedience will bring us back into the proper state where earth will become a paradise at a time preordained by God. This will bring about peace and prosperity for all humans. That is God’s promise through faith in the ransom sacrifice.
It was difficult for me to understand why Jesus had to suffer an agonising, humiliating death to accomplish salvation for us so I asked God and have come to understand and appreciate what was done on my behalf and on behalf of all mankind.
This is my thoughts on why God deserves to be worshipped. Hope it can help you in some way. Feel free to disagree. In fact I would urge you to read the bible and ask God for understanding. You will probably find a variable concept according to your personal understanding. I feel that is what we all should do rather than just accept what another person has come to personally understand. The facts don’t change but our understanding can develop stronger with time and questioning.
Hello Jay
I understand that Cain became a murderer but not Adam or Eve. I have children too and I suspect that if any of yours become murderers, they would need your understanding and not your rejection. Maybe by murderers you mean they simply don’t worship or believe God. This is not murder and it would be very sad if you shared that extreme interpretation. As you and M Powers find many questions in traditional theology you can hopefully recognize that a non religious view would be easy for your children to follow. I understand this well because that is the path I have taken and these questions present no issue for me. I have not rejected God, I just cannot honestly see that God exists. I am not immoral nor a murderer and my ethics is similar to when I was christian and similar to my siblings who never were. The assumption that only by believing in God can we be good is very disturbing. Fred Hollows was a communist and gave his life to restore sight in third world countries. The assumption that if we read the Bible, we will come to accept it is disturbing too. My observation is that only if we read prescribed bits will it strengthen faith. My response to your post is motivated to suggest that you accept your children even (especially) if they believe differently to you, I suspect that you will.
Dear Martin
Adam and Eve brought death to all mankind by defying God. If they had kept faithful we would have parents from the beginning who proved just. They would have lived on earth forever as God had promised. Gen 2:9 Gen 3:22 shows that if Adam and Eve had put out their hand and eaten the fruit of the tree giving eternal life they would not have died. An angel was posted in front of that tree with a burning sword turning continually to protect from this happening. If Adam and Eve had taken from the tree of life they would have been indestructable even after they had sinned.
I allow my children freedom of will and thought I do not, never have and never will force my beliefs on them. Belief in God is personal.
Your comment has made me realise I need to be careful what I write because I have not meant what I wrote in the way you interpreted it.
My thoughts were this world is permeated with evil. There is so much suffering and evil and people are asking why. How many times have we seen in the news murderers whose family don’t want their family member to suffer in any way for a crime all evidence points to them having committed? Family and friends just don’t want to know or have the true facts unearthed. Many choose to take the part of the evildoer. That can only contribute to suffering and injustice.
It seems to me that often people want to cover up for the crimes of a person because they know them and wouldn’t want their family member or friend to be convicted. This I believe contributes greatly to evil deeds. Criminals think they can get off with it and if they have a lot of friends and a family that will cover up for them they will feel invincible but what protection is there in that scenario for the victims of crime?
If we are prepared to protect a son, daughter or friend who has committed a heinous crime by covering up for him or her we are or would be as culpable as the mugger, murderer or child abuser we want to protect.
It is a command in the bible to render justice. If we fail to do that we will answer for our contribution to evil. Jesus tells the chief scribes they are from the devil who was a manslayer from the beginning and they do the work of the devil. I just don’t understand how anyone can hate, murder and or abuse other humans without compassion.
God’s command to the Israelites at Numbers 35:30-34 Every fatal striker of a soul should be slain as a murderer you must take no ransom for a soul that is a murderer. And you must not pollute or defile the land in which you are dwelling. The law given to the Israelites through Moses was not adhered to as recorded in Isaiah 1:15-21 ..”With bloodshed your hands have become filled.. remove the badness of your dealings from infront of my eyes; cease to do bad, learn to do good, search for justice, set right the oppressor render judgment..O how the faithful town has become a prostitute. She was full of justice, righeousness itself used to lodge in her but now murderers etc.. For this reason the Israelites were taken captive to Babyon.
What will happen to us in the judgment if we want to allow injustice and support those doing wicked deeds?
Martin, I realise you no longer believe in God or the bible but if bible commands were kept by everyone in this world we would have world peace, no suffering. I don’t see how humans have to make that an impossibility. If people cared for each other indiscriminately we would be as Jerusalem should have been a duel peace as the meaning of Jerusalem means just that.
I believe in natural laws so the idea that Adam would have never died seems odd to me. This belief seems based on one way of interpreting the bible. I suspect that Adam like all people and all animals were always mortal.
Of course if everyone followed the bible, or even some of the other scriptures the world would be more peaceful. Following the golden rule should also be enough to greatly improve this world. Science and technology will also improve our standard of life and reduce suffering by (for one example) predicting cyclones and preventing deaths.
I see the world (as a humanist) as permeated with goodness. Study of history shows that goodness is increasing as we humans realize how we want to and can live, i.e. without war. Think how slaves, aboriginals, women, children, poor, mentally ill, all used to be treated even just decades ago.
I’m not sure that justice is always important, in fact Jesus taught forgiveness and that does not even require justice. He forgave people because of his big heart. This is what all parents do for their children. An eye for an eye will not bring sight back but only avenge a hardened heart. Turning the other cheek looks like foolishness and weakness. A parent convicting his child’s killer often reflects that it didn’t bring happiness. That’s old school even in theology.
Justice for the prostitute meant stoning her but instead, Jesus let her go and set her free!
Hi Jim
As a humanist you see the world as permeated with goodness. That is fine as long as we are unconcerned with all the suffering of innocent people in your humanistic world. How good is it that 655,000 innocent men, women and children have been killed since the beginning of the Iraq invasion? Not to mention those of great proportions who have survived minus limbs. Who has caused this and who really has caused the collapse of the World Trade Centre? Whoever is responsible God knows and everyone who knows God knows that ultimately Satan is the one behind all the world’s suffering and carnage. He is the ultimate psychopath and many are willing to be directed by that evil spirit. But then as a humanist these things might not register.
People are saying it is due to a conspiracy the Trade Centre Collapse has happened. Intelligent informed people are putting forward facts to prove that. Of course these people could have an ulterior motive and giving their slant to entrap who knows but God.
The reason they say is to bring about a One World Government and single currency. A One World objective does substantiate the prophecy in Matthew 24:15-22 “therefore when you see the disgusting thing that causes desolation as spoken of through Daniel standing in the holy place let the reader use discernment”. One currency and one Government just like Hitler aimed for. We are advised to keep praying because there is to be tribulation that has not occurred since the beginning of the world and will never occur again because if those days were not cut short no flesh would be saved.
The suffering of the Iraqi people and those caught up in the carnage relating to this and the third world is just the beginning. The evil leading up to Armageddon is at the beginning it will soon engulf the whole earth. That is the time when God’s by his mighty power will rescue mankind from Satanic Forces bringing about devastation.
We are encouraged to rely on our Saviour to come as promised which he said he will do on account of the chosen ones Matthew 24:22. So who are the chosen ones? Jesus coming is the only hope for the survival of the earth no humanist will be able to do a thing.
(I presume that by Jim, you mean me)
As a christian you too could see the world permeated with goodness. The bible says that God said each creation day was ‘good’. My comment was a reaction to your pessimistic view of this unjust world in your earlier post. I am yet to see a good theory as to why bad things happen to good people. Even Perry cannot answer this one;
“There’s a lot of sickness and sadness in this world. How can God let it go on? Well, I can’t give you an answer. I can only tell you a true story.” – a quote from lines 8-10 at the top of this page.
A humanist has no difficulty explaining an unjust world but we do have difficulty in proposing a loving God who would allow suffering or injustice.
My optimism does not mean I am unconcerned with suffering of innocent people, as you imply. My humanism does not mean I don’t understand your theory of blaming Satan. I think Satan is used as a scapegoat for people doing evil things. If we postulate that “weakness” or “selfishness” made me do some evil thing, then it is clear where the blame really lies. We can blame Satan but our own actions need to change.
We can wait for Jesus to return but many people have been waiting all their lives and he hasn’t come. His arrival has been predicted by followers every few years for the last hundred years. (Check on Google) My grandfather preached Armageddon and Jesus’ imminent coming in his lifetime. What if you are wrong too, and he doesn’t come at all? We still have to change ourselves (I have shown why i believe this is happening).
A few passages in the bible seem to show God as letting the world fall into Satan’s hands to prove to us how bad we are. What a sad theology. What a sad God if this is true. Science leads me to humanism and reveals no superman style messiah. It reveals no “God by his mighty power”. The world works by natural laws and not by miracles (that cannot be explained scientifically).
It is interesting to ponder that if Iraqis didn’t believe in Allah, they would probably not be at war. If Americans didn’t believe in God, they would not have invaded. You must realize it is a religious war because you call it Armageddon. “Imagine all those people, living life in peace.”
Hi Martin, sorry did mean you not Jim. I understand your line of thought. Where can we go in this world to find true peace and happiness other than locking ourselves away and shutting our eyes and ears to all that is happening. Do you, or does anyone trust the world to bring peace and security? Another Government perhaps? I don’t trust any man made organisation anymore.
The only person we can trust you feel has let us down. Is it not humans and their quest for power and selfish motives that cause suffering? Is it not we ourselves who have let us down to the extent we contribute to anything that goes against His Commandments?
God has sent his son and has promised to return when the earth will be restored to a two fold peace. A Heavenly Kingdom and an Earthly Kingdom under the rulership of YHWH and His Son Jesus. How will this come about? My answer is we must make our choice to trust in God or trust in this world. Choose to obey God’s laws or become violators of His Law. The fact that the world cannot bring peace and prosperity only suffering will be proof that when God does come and does enact vengeance it will be deserved.
Everyone who contributes to suffering and does not agree to change will come to know the wrath of God. You ask why this hasn’t happened. Whilst we all trusted in Governments and religions we would have thought God was unjust if he broke up their works but now in this day we are well aware there can be no other saviour.
2nd Thessalonians 2:3-12 “Let no one seduce you in any manner because it will not come unless the apostacy must come first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The True God, publicly showing himself to be a god. vs 7 true the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work but only until he who is right now acting as a restraint gets out of the way. Then indeed the lawless one will be revealed who the Lord Jesus will do away with the spirit of his mouth. And bring to nothing the manifestations of his presence. But the lawless ones presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents.
With a view to his being revealed in his own due time. When Jesus returns the apostacy and wickedness is visible to all. As verse 9 reveals the lawless ones presence is according to Satan whom Jesus will do away with.
There has always been wickedness and innocent people have always suffered throughout the centuries but they have never before had the means to wipe the whole world out many times over. They have those means now and it is only our God who can save his creation from complete annihilation. God will intervene before there is no flesh saved. Matt 24:22
That’s why we all need to trust in God. Keep his commandments and pray for His Kingdom to come.
God Bless…
ps to Martin
One other point if I may. I don’t think of the Iraq invasion as a religious war. I think of it as a greed for power and oil war with religion as a smoke screen.
not everything has an opposite.
Everything has an opposite.
Heat doesn’t need an opposite,
Opposite of “HOT” is ” NOT HOT(cold)”
nor does light,
Opposite of “light” is ” NO light (dark)”
nor does God.
Opposite of
God who exists and is “I AM” because He is the TRUTH and “Father of everything that exists” who is good and creates is
Satan who does not exist because “HE IS NOT” because he is a LIE and “Father of all LIES” who is bad and destroys;
and they don’t have a choice
People don’t have opposites; why should God need one?
Men are special, because they have a choce to be “Good” and LIVE eternally or be “Bad” and DIE eternally.
Reply
You still think cold is the opposite of heat;
1) what else is?
dark is the opposite of light;
2) What else is?
and, Satan, evil, etc. is the opposite of God
3) What else is? at least as far as Man is concerned?”
1) The *absence* of heat.
is (COLD)
2) The ABSENCE of light.
is Darkness
Any luck with that dark beam, yet?
In a unverse where there is no darkness, (only light), you can have a beam of darkness, like you can draw a white line on a blackboard as easily as a black line on a whiteboard
3) Satan is opposed to God, in that he fights against God, but calling him God’s opposite is saying that they are equal.
God is I AM which is TRUTH which is eternal,and good.
THe Opposite is I AM NOT, which is a lie (Maya in Hinduism)and exists only temporarily for the survivors (saved men)and is a film of imagination which blinds Man from Truth (I AM). Within the film of Maya, man is like a student airline pilot in a flying training simulator. Success of his training depends on his realisation of real truth outside the simulator shell and accumulating the strength , faith, and courage to break out of it. On his own, man would never have been able to see TRUTH, but God sent HIS WORD (JESUS) to proclaim to all men about His Kingdom outside. Those who believe in Jesus and FOLLOW HIM (and demonstrate their faith through their deeds- not merely by saying words)will be saved.
Within the shell of “LIES” Satan is given the strength by God to oppose or even overcome virtue or goodness. That is why Jesus was crucified in our world. In His own Kingdom, He would have been protected. But all LIES have limited life, and will be exposed eventually. LIES and all who believed and trusted in lies will die a permanent death.
It must be terrible, living in a world where God’s power is equally matched by the devil’s!
Tough luck, because God has given Heaven’s keys to the Pope, and is allowing the devil to roam around on earth, and spew hatred and destruction. Man has to grin and bear it till Satan is bound and thrown into eternal destruction.
When we remember that Jesus cried “ELI ELI LAMA SABACHTHANI” ( ‘My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?’ ” (Matthew 27:45-46, NKJV)we can realise that God did not spare even His Son (Jesus) when he was a man in this world, from receiving the raw end from SATAN.
“In the logic I learnt at school, ” I AM NOT” is the opposite of “I AM””
Too bad your teachers didn’t explain the concept of non-existence. If the devil is “I AM NOT” then (obviously) he doesn’t exist… rather a different situation than him being God’s opposite.
” I AM” exists only in God’s Kingdom. God allows “I AM NOT” to exist in our world for some time, till
an angel comes down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
And he seizes “I AM NOT” (SATAN the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil, and bind him for 1,000 years.
“I AM NOT” will be hurled into the abyss and shut and sealed over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After these things he will be let loose for a little while (Revelation 20:1-3).
Now as soon as the 1,000 years have been ended, Satan “I AM NOT” will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea.
And they will advance over the breadth of the earth and encircle the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire will come down out of heaven and devour them.
And the Devil who was misleading them will be hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Revelation 20:7-10).
You think your cute little “I AM NOT” argument is so clever, but any child can point out the problem: the devil does exist, so therefore he can’t be the epitome of non-existence.
The Devil exists in this world as much as darkness or low pressure areas exist in this world.
Go back to school, and try learning about classification: God is “I AM eternal”, Satan is not; God is “I AM omni-potent”; Satan is not (”not omni-potent” being significantly different from “impotent”, the “opposite” of omnipotent); God is good,
You can learn it all much easier from a copy of the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church)
Satan is NOT GOOD, which we label as “evil” in order to give it a convenient name, not because there is actually a “negative” form of “good”; ……. If you want to use your “I AM NOT” argument, at least do it right.
If God is Good, eternal, and the TRUTH, Satan is the opposite, which nullifies or diminishes the Godly qualities , who is bad, temporary, because he is UNTRUTH or lies.
“But the Catholic God is without (outside) His creation. The Catholic God is not normally part of His creation. But The Son of the Catholic God can come into the hearts of worthy Christians in this world but who have rejected this world, and would after their life exist eternally in Heaven”
Yes, you’re getting it! The only problem is the “worthy” part; none of us are worthy, and that is why we need grace.
All men are granted grace. But a few haughty ones like Henry VIII are too proud to gracefully receive it.
“Jesus said in Mark 9:40 Anyone who is not against us is for us. This means that whatever is against us is the opposite of us. Conversely, Anybody who is not opposing us, is for us.”
…and, you’ve lost it again. “Against” is not the same as “opposite of” because “opposite of” is not the same as “opposed to”. Again, you can oppose someone without being his opposite. You’re trying to argue vocabulary, and you won’t win this one.
You can get to the TRUTH through Mathematics, or quantum mechanics, humanities, or literature. God exists everywhere, even in a dictionary.
“You have all the examples, throughout history, of human failure; isn’t it possible that Jesus Himself is still supposed to be the head of the Church,
“No it is not possible, because the Church is at present in the world,…””
So the head of the Church has to be physically present in the world? Why?
Again, we can either trust in God’s wisdom in doing what He does, or question it.
Obama may be the Supreme commander of the US defense services. But He will surely have a local commander in say IRAQ.
Anybody who refuses to obey the POPE, is like a US soldier who refuses to receive instruction from the local commander, insisting that he would march only if he is ordered to do so by Obama.
For a long time, Israel was a theocracy, following God Who was “present” as a column of fire or smoke. Christ is present in our hearts. He is still the Head of the church, and we need no man between us and Him.
Unfortunately God does not take our opinion when he decides whether to come to us as a column of smoke, or fire, in an ark, or in Mother Mary’s womb, as a man (Jesus), or just send instructions and teachings to us through prophets, angels, or popes.
“Till Jesus comes back to claim His Church , he leaves it to be managed by Peter and his successors, for whose help and guidance, He promised to send a paraclete in
John 14 :16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.””
Um, I didn’t see anything about Peter’s “position” requiring successors.
Jesus surely didn’t expect Christianity to die with Peter, or for Peter to live for more than 2000 years.
And that promise to send the Holy Spirit…? Jesus was talking to Philip, not Peter. Of course, we understand that the Helper would be sent to ALL of those who know and love Jesus. And it still doesn’t say anywhere that Jesus was setting up a *human* leader for the church; Peter was special as a church *builder*, and on the foundation of faith, like Peter’s, the church would be built.
The Catholic Christian Church that Jesus established was not made of bricks and mortar, but of *human* beings. That is why
St. Peter, a human being was made the foundation of His Church.
but just consider how much God liked the idea of Israel having a (human) king instead of just following God…
But Jesus made David, a king of the Jews, in spite of his numerous human frailties.
If you want to compare the Roman Catholic bureaucracy to the Old Testament priests, then great! Jesus is the High Priest. He’s still the Head of the Church.
No Catholic will challenge that. And if you want to compare it with Obama administration, if God is Obama, then a local commander in Iraq will be the Pope.
“On the other hand, I feel that this discussion is very relevant to the subject in hand, because it shows why in God’s plan, there has to be a falling off of a part of his own creation to oppose those who are loyal to God, to act as a vaccine to strengthen those who stay with him, and immunise those who believe in him from destruction.”
Cute, but 2 Peter 3:9! God is not willing for ANY to perish, so how can He plan for a “falling off of part of His own creation”?
For whom then, did He make the elaborate Hell for? And is Satan also not His creation? Will he not allow Satan also to perish in the end?
I think you have to read the scripture systematically, instead of from here and there, to get a grasp of what God’s plan is.
“As a body made up of human beings, there will be faults and imperfections in the Church. But our duty will be stay together and strive for perfection. Our endeavours will only serve to strengthen our faith, and bond, as well as the unity and increase the perfection and efficiency of the church.”
Yeah, that would mean a whole lot more coming from someone who didn’t describe himself as “a very bad person who finds joy in poking holes in other’s arguments”. (You said it, not me. If you want people to actually find value in the good things you say, then you have to start being more careful in your postings. You speak out of both sides of your mouth, you perversely take pleasure in “fanning the flames”, you deliberately insult, and yet you think your postings will serve in some way to “strengthen” faith? Salt water and fresh water can’t both flow from the same spring (James 3:11); repent of the salt water, and focus on producing clean water that refreshes. Then, maybe, your words of truth will accomplish some good.)
I have never claimed to be good enough to meet anybody’s standards. But are we discussing “ME”, or why God allows EVIL to exist in this world?
And if you’re going to copy and paste text from another site, like Wikipedia, have the decency to say where you got it. Otherwise, it’s plagiarism
There is nothing in this world that is original. Even the Wright Brothers must have stolentheir ida of flying from the birds. I you write ” 1+ 1 = 2, ” , to whom will you give the credit of its invention?
I also have contributed to the Wikipidea, and in no way can I say anything I have given is originally mine.
You really love silly questions. Does the grocer promise to deliver milk straight from the cow? Or does the cow offer to walk into your house, squeeze it out into your glass and then cool it with its frosty breath?
God promises to save those who will believe in Jesus Christ His Son. Does He promise milk delivery? Well, He promises to help in times of trouble. He might use a “middleman”, and He might not. For Elijah, He used birds to deliver food. Why didn’t Elijah just go to the grocer (or merchant or farmer…)? When Jesus performed miracles, when people have been healed in Jesus’ Name, why didn’t God just say, “Go to the doctor, that’s what he’s there for”?
I think you got my point right this time. Though God can deliver food through birds or as mannah, he normally uses a grocer to feed you. He uses saints to deliver goodies to catholic christians, and sometimes angels or other men (Popes)to deliver instructions or teachings. Unfortunately He does not ask our opinion on which vehicle to use to deliver food to you. He expects you to trust Him in His Capability to send you your daily bread.
…and you missed my point completely; deliberately, no doubt. Did Elijah pray to the birds to deliver him the food? Do we pray to the doctor to heal us?
I will not convince you because you will not be convinced; “there are none so blind as those who will not see”.
Dear Tony
Initially it is a bit difficult for a person who reads the scriptures to believe that birds could deliver food to Elijah. It is difficult for us humans to really believe something outwith our knowledge, experience and social standards. I had to ask God to instruct me on this when I first read it and I was instructed to understand that God made birds with instinctive powers to migrate and function therefore it is not difficult for God to instruct his creation as he pleases.
I am catholic originally,but slowly losing my christian faith.
Do not lose faith or hope. They are graces that you can get only from GOD. Pray to God to give you Faith and Hope which are required in large doses to survive in these times of Depression and Despair.
Mainly as a result of influences from my protestant friends to read the Old Testament and accept it as divine truth.
Continue to keep your freindship with your Protestant freinds. Even a blind person can sometimes guide you to your destination. Even Satan ad Liars do not spew out 100% lies. They mix 1% poison with 99% truth, to lead you to destruction.
If you pray sincerely to God, He will give you power to discern what is good and what is bad, and like a good mango tree, you will be able to extract the good from any shit, and use it to produce good fruits.
Catholics are not encouraged to read the bible,but rather it is conveyed to them by the priest in church.
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John 16:12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
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Hebrews 5:12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
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1 Peter 2:2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
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1 Corinthians 3:2: I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready,
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From the above, we can see that man was not able to grasp or understand truths, till he was prepared or programmed to receive it. We cannot give a book on Theory of relativity to a two year old toddler, and expect him to read and understand it.
Anyway,I shouldnt have started reading it either.
Yahweh appears to be an exclusivly jewish god,telling his people to kill everybody else until they become foot stools of the jews.Yahweh is clearly a homocidel maniac killing everybody indiscriminatelly starting with the flood,the Jerico massacre and so on.
The Father of Jesus seems to be a totally different god .
God deal with a man also, in different ways at different stages of his development. Before birth, God sometimes aborts a foetus if it is not growing according to His plan. After birth, God gradually loads the man with increasingly difficult tasks, to make him stronger, as well as to test his reliability, and capability. When the man is in a foetus stage, there are only comparatively less nimber of cells, and a flaw in one of them can be fatal. But after multiplying many thousand folds, if a few cells mis-behave, the rest of the cells will make up for them, and the result is not fatal.
Similarly, God was seen to be very strict or cruel initially (The Big Flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, etc.), when there were very few men. But now there are enough good copies of bits and pieces of His plan distributed around the world, (like a hologram with a scratch, or break, or the internet with plenty of redundancy), that He can afford to be more lenient with an odd breakaway or rebellious man here and there.
Jesus states that he didnt come to destroy mankind,but to save them,but even Jesus declares a few times that he had only come to save the lost sheep of Israel.
Its all too jewish to me.I am not a jew and I dont want to be their foot stool.I dont want to rule anybody else,and I dont want any promised land,and anything for free either.I just want to live quetly ,in peace with everybody else,following the norms of a civilised society. I dont have to be saved ,I havent done anything wrong.Some priests .pastors are much worst as I can see.
Of the people remaining in the world, Abraham was the least corrupted. So God chose to bring up a new nation to receive Jesus from Abraham. Abraham’s legal descendents through Isaac are the Jews. You can consider yourself lucky, because after the birth of Jesus, even non-Jews have an opportunity to be saved, because through Jesus, all mankind including the non Jews have access to the true un-corrupted WORD of God.
Tony Francis, would you by any chance be from Barbados? Just wondering!
I am now in Rockford, Illinois, but I travel a lot. Barbados is one of the few places I would like to visit but was not able to do so far.
Dear Tony,
A lot what u said about the catholic church makes sense…
But @the end…it’s not about catholic faith , Protestant faith…it’s about faith…period…
And hope and grace…all that cristianity is about….
The most imp being love…and I believe God is love
One of the first things my mother taught me…
But, never to destroy Anyones life…who knows what the other has been thru huh….
Maybe their world was upside down…no one is born perfect…if u were perfect, u would be god..
U always gotta do what’s good…not in societies eyes but in gods eyes..
Ya, I have faults…I’m really stupid…but I was gods creation too…
All I have to say is no one knows what’s coming….anything can happen…god brought us this far right….
Ur right..we gotta pray…he does give us power to discern.
Tc
I have read a book by Phil Yancey called Disappointed with God where he tries also without success to explain why bad things happen to good people. He gives God a lot of latitude because He is also suffering, more than us, or so he supposes. Like the crucifixion example this fails to answer the question as to why God only rarely intervenes. Yancey suggests once that an atheist would not be disappointed in God because he expects nothing from God and gets nothing from God. Such an obvious solution! This possibility is never pursued but answers the question perfectly. This world would be unfair, and fair, actually totally random, if God was absent. Christian apologists dance uncomfortably around this question but sometimes the simple answer is correct.
perrari, I do have a question: what possibly do you think you were in your previous life,or can you recall anything from the previous?
You see I don’t find logic in the karmic law.the truth is that man is a tripartite being,his self being a living soul.with death there’s the decay of the body turning to soil,and the soul goes to dwell in the spiritual form, awaiting accountability and retribution from the infinite, immortal,invincible God only wise!
Hi Frank, I do not know what I was in my previous birth, nor can I recall anything from it. Some people like to investigate this and there are instances on record of people regressing under hypnosis and recounting details of previous lives that are had to explain except that they were there and lived it.
I prefer to take the word of the Vedas as Truth, and in Bhagavad Gita Krishna explains that the living entity (soul) has always existed, and moves from one body to another according to his activities and consciousness.
The soul can take birth in any of the species of life, but when it is born as a human it has the capacity to understand spiritual matters which is not possible for lower species. When the human birth is over then the soul is indeed held accountable, for only in a human birth is there a question of right or wrong. This is not applicable to animal births.
The soul will enjoy in heaven for its pious activities and suffer in hell for its sinful activities, then after the bulk of the reactions are worked off in this way, it will take another birth on earth and enjoy and suffer according to its residual karma. This is done under the supervision of Lord Yamaraja and Chitra Gupta who are deputed and empowered by the Supreme Lord to oversee these matters, and as His subordinates,they work entirely under His directions.
Although I have no knowledge of my previous births, throughout my life some things I have been able to pick up quickly and somethings I never get the hang of. Some people I connect with immediately and some people I can never understand. This would be consistent if I had met people in previous lives and had friendships or enmity with them, or spent time studying a subject or art, and achieved some proficiency at it.
The Vedas say that it takes 7 births of study and practice to perfect any of the arts.
As far as I know Christianity and science have no explanation for why some people are gifted at music or painting or languages or any other subject, while others are not. Although the soul cannot remember its previous lives and activities, still the subtle body carries impressions from thousands of lives with it, and those impressions only fade and are replaced with new ones gradually. This explains why different people have different skills, abilities, fears, hopes etc.
What is illogical about that?
Dear Perry,
This is my view on the question posed earlier by Mr.Jack. When we talk about sufferings of human due to tragic things – the deformities, the blindness, the retardation and the like, did we ever think who really suffer? the victim or their parents? All well beings in the world have no independent nature; it is societal. Unless the humanity corrects itself to righteousness in its entire doings from issues of social behaviour to environmental management, there won’t be any relief from all these sufferings. It will only multiply!! The real tragedy is in the fact that having all these happening before our eyes, yet there is no repentance!! It is to be believed that adverse result of a wrong doing shall remain and manifest up to seven generations for the human beings to understand the gravity of evil doings. And the result of every good doing shall be reaped for 14 generations or more. I personally invite everyone to do a sincere introspection with regard to the real root cause of every misfortune in everyone’s’ or his/her generations’ life.
What we need to understand is not why God allow tragic things in the world but why the choice of good and evil is given to living things right from the beginning!
Mathew
Why would God create a world where life consumes life to live?
“Why would God create a world where life consumes life to live?”
I asked this question December 10th, 2011 and have received nothing but crickets.
If ANYONE ELSE has a reasonable idea, email me at pjmciii at hotmail
My role model is my father, as I know my father more than other except my mother. Father is my God, Mother is my goddesses. Hence I am son of God.
I know myself other than any God. My wavelength is completely my personnel, which is bestowed by mother. I am a Monarch in my mother, my arrival makes my mother her first menses, she came to light as a matured girl. From that day I am a waste fellow when ever I am down to earth, cause the sperm monarch, one in spermatozoon of my father, a foreign body from the outer world, as I am in my own world in my mother, she is my motherland where I have came to life, from her liver, where I have been purified as pure gold. It is said Indian myth sri Aadi Shankaracharya’s hyms, “Punarapijananam” in the next birth, “Jatarae sayanam” you should be there in the fire of stomach, under the control of liver where the “Jataraagni” hunger fire, which will comes to cool only by intake of food. In other words a good food is always considered to be Nectar.
“Maathru devo bhave”, Mother god made me as meat and fruit, “Pithru devo bhava”, father mate me with the edible flour, “Achaarya devo bhava”, is the pie a FOETUS {PINDA} the Jupiter+Venus. The coagulation of these two planets in astrology narrates more of the mans birth. In Hymns and mantras it is narrated as sacred secrets, which are chanted but not break the suspense, it takes many colors till to day the children are the gift of god, but not the God himself. Scolding are the ancient sayings to direct the known how to mate. We never gone into analyse the scoldings and reveal the truth. we are in the option that they are bad to speak, which are the vocabulary of sex education. Just mean the vocabulary as the scoldings are familiar in the family.
Let us take the example of the “Boat and Scull”,A boat with out a scull never move, there is no work for the scull without a boat. Here boat is female genital and scull is a dot of nectar which gives life to the boat to move is male genital. Boat is the body which covers the skull. The scull is the skull of humans.
The Lord Shiva begs in his skull as he is nothing in his skull, hens he begs for knowledge, not for ALMS. No alms can fill the stomach, like wise no knowledge is there to fill the skull. How much you learn as a learned you are till and still to learn more and more.
Knowledge is OCEAN, what about the remaining six oceans, as there are seven oceans. All these seven oceans are one Ocean, or separate, though they are one, we made them as chapters in a book, to simplify the knowledge.
This ERA is counted as Before Christ and and After Death. The difference between the two calculations is the life of Christ, the son of God. Before my mothers delivery (BD), I am not here on the earth, only after my cry (AC) I have been recognized.
Every incident ties with the formation of the world. Provide me an opportunity to narrate more and more in a figurative manner, to answer the doubts in Indian MYTHOLOGICAL HYMNS, MANTRAS, idioms, etc.,
with regards,
Sahaguru Veenagabhushan.
it’s appointed unto all of us to die. i’ve never really seen a nice way of dying, but i think it’s the extent of opportunity we have to develope the spirit that was given us and how we develope it that counts. don’t worry the seemingly unjustness that you witness will be handled appropriatly and their spirit will be rewarded for eternity. this is not my promise, but i promise because GOD allows me to.
Why we add every time really?, or swear it is true. What you experienced is a reality for you, but it may not for the outer world. All is situational. Head feel and hide, but not the the tail. If the tail is happy it waves it, it is straight when it is frightened. Image is there for every individual, but he who makes it it was there. Happy going made the God inside happy. When you share the pains of others the God inside felt more and more happy. The self satisfaction is the out put of strength, but not power.
Hi, i would like to ask if God is so powerful, why he had only one son?
During the short time that Krishna visited THIS particular universe, He had 16,108 wives all living in their own separate palaces and enjoying an individual one on one relationship with Him.
With each wife He had 10 sons and each of His sons had another 10 sons, so as you can see His family was extensive.
Although we are all children of God, Jesus is in the special category of shaktavesha avatar which means he was specifically empowered to preach His father’s message.
There have been many like him over the years and there will be many more.
Any one who is qualified may take the role of shaktavesha avatar. You need to be completely pure and fully surrendered to the Lord’s desire with no personal interest, with a service attitude that is both unmotivated and uninterrupted by anything.
Hope this helps.
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In response to Lie # 7.
In the old testament, The Law of Sin and Death was wrongly confused as God’s wrath. In the new testament, When Jesus came, he revieled the true nature of God’s character.
In the beginning, Before the first sin (where Lucifer rebels against God), God made a promise to reap what you sow, bc all he knew was Love. There was no darkness in him. He also made a promise of free will. When Lucifer rebelled against god, was jealous of god because he was a spirit.And could go to and from heaven as he pleased. Lucifer left is angelic body thus committing the first sin(some would call suicide) and persuaded 1/3 of the angels to follow him. God could not break his promise, that you reap what you sow. Through this, LUCIFER created the law of sin and death.
All suffering, pain, hardships, trials/etc. are because of the sins of EVERYBODY WHO HAS EVER LIVED ON THIS PLANET. Its one big innertwined ripple effect you could say.
God is not in total control of our lives, because it would go against his promise of free will. We are in control. We might suffer but it is not because of God.
God does not judge us, The Law of Sin and Death does. or in other words you can say we judge ourselves. Jesus came to die for our sins to be the exception to this Law of Sin and Death, so that we will not be condemned by it. The only way to get past this law is to have a relationship with christ.
People pray that people will protected from evil. But yet children and adults are abused and killed. People pray for the safety of children in school. Yet God allows someone to go in and kill them. Why is it that God allows it when people pray for it not to happen? People have asked where was God when it happened? I heard someone say God was standing between the victims and the bullets. That did not stop the bullets.