Faith-killing questions from the trenches, and answers
Top 10 Reasons to Not Be a Christian
Q & A Session Audio
- “There is no scientific evidence whatsoever of any miracles ever actually occurring.”
- “The Jesus story just is an accumulation of myths of legendary people, all rolled into one über nice guy.”
- “Science and faith are incompatible ways of thinking. Separate realms that should be kept separate.”
- “The history of science is the story of one religious superstition after another being eradicated by reason and logic.”
- “The Bible is a translation of a translation of tales cobbled together by Constantine in 300AD.”
- “St. Paul invented Christianity by making a nice rabbi named Jesus into a god.”
- “Evolution disproves God.”
- “In their arrogant superiority, Christians think everybody else is going to burn in hell for all eternity.”
- “The Bible is riddled with contradictions and therefore cannot be the perfect word of God.”
- “More people have been killed in the name of religion than any other cause in the history of the world.”
This story starts with my brother Bryan, a tough-questions seminary student. He got a Masters degree in theology at a very conservative seminary where they work them real good, and he toed the line and he learned all the stuff that he’s supposed to learn, and he moved to China.
He’s in China for a couple of years and he basically turned into an agnostic and came within spitting distance of becoming an atheist, which really shook me up.
Bryan is a very smart guy, and one of the questions that he asked was this.
He goes, “Okay, Perry, I’ve been to seminary. I know Greek, I know Hebrew, I know Aramaic, and when I read the New Testament I do not see any reason whatsoever from the text why we should not have miracles today. So where are they?
1. “There is no scientific evidence whatsoever of any miracles ever actually occurring.”
And I’m like, “Uh…let me ask my sales manager and get back to you.” I hate it when people ask ‘elephant in the room’ questions.
Now, if you’ve been in any strand of Christianity for any length of time, you will encounter miracle stories. For example, “We prayed for my sister Debbie and she had cancer, and all of a sudden she didn’t have cancer anymore.”
Every now and then, I don’t care where you are in Christianity, you will hear those. I’ve heard a few of them, but I was in very short supply of such stories and I hadn’t thought about it much. I had always been taught that those miracles went away and they either don’t exist anymore, or at least never happen “on command.”
And Bryan’s cutting to the chase; he’s like, “Well, I don’t see any reason why they shouldn’t.” And I knew he was right. So what’s the deal? Let’s start in on this.
I went looking and I’ll teII you that one interesting book that I found along the way was by Richard Casdorph, who is a medical doctor. He wrote a book in the 1970s called Real Miracles. This is an older version of the book. It’s called, The Miracles – A Medical Doctor Says Yes to Miracles.
What this guy did was there was this lady back in the 1970s named Catherine Kuhlman and she would do these healing services. He followed her around and he documented what happened to these people. He documented the “before” and the “after” and he did so with X-rays, medical reports, letters from doctors, all of that kind of stuff. This book is 10 case studies. I’ll tell you what some of the chapter names are:
- Malignant Brain Tumor
- Multiple Sclerosis
- Atherosclerotic Heart Disease
- Carcinoma of the Kidney
- Mixed Rheumatoid Arthritis and Osteoarthritis
And he goes through, one by one, with X-rays, doctor’s reports and everything and says, “This guy had this before and it’s gone now. Here’s the X-ray, here’s the letter from the doctor, and there it is.” This is not by any means the only such book, but they exist.
Another example of this is God and The Sun at Fatima. Catholics will know what Fatima is (probably most Protestants won’t) but I think back somewhere around 1913, just before World War I, some children were playing and they had a vision of the Virgin Mary. She said that something really amazing is going to happen here at this certain date and they told everybody. Everybody showed up and they all saw it.
This book is by Stanley Jaki, who is a physicist and a Catholic priest and a science historian. He goes into 360 pages of interviewing people and documenting all this. This is as close as you can get to a scientific investigation of a miracle.
Another book that I ran across that I found real interesting that isn’t really about miracles but is about the metaphysical world is called Margins of Reality, by Robert Jahn and Brenda Dunne.
They worked at the Princeton University Engineering Anomalies Research Lab. The lab was closed in 2007, but for almost 30 years there was a lab at Princeton and they would investigate paranormal phenomena. And they proved to five 9’s of statistical confidence (that’s almost six Sigma) that people could deflect falling objects by concentrating. They proved that they could send and receive telepathic messages.
Now, most of the scientific community does not know what to do with this stuff. It freaks them out, but it’s there. This is a fascinating book. So I started investigating this, and I also started looking for personal experiences.
A couple of years ago I was in India with my friend, Jeremy. He has spent a lot of time doing healing and practicing Biblical healing. We were at a little church service and Jeremy goes up to the pastor and says, “Tell these people that if they want healing prayer at the end of the service, I’ll pray for them.” So the pastor tells all the people and everyone was like, “Well, okay, I’ll go over there!”
Jeremy was like, “Perry, Perry, come over here and help me!” I’d never done this before. There was a woman whose whole left arm was paralyzed. She had had brain surgery a year and a half before. She had an indentation in her head from the surgery. She had been having seizures ever since the surgery and she had no feeling in her left arm. She wanted us to pray for her.
So Jeremy’s like, “Okay, Perry, start praising God, start praying for this lady!”
I’m like, “Okay, me Robin, you Batman, I’ll do whatever you tell me to do,” and we started praying. He would poke her on the hand – “Can you feel that?”
“No, can’t feel that.”
He’d pray some more and ask, “Can you feel that?”
“I’m starting to feel something!” So he would pray some more and at the end of 20 minutes, all the feeling was back in her left arm. She was so excited, she didn’t know what to do with herself.
A guy came in with a broken wrist, holding it like that; by the end, he was jumping up and down, he was so excited.
There was another lady who had a severe shoulder injury and she couldn’t move her shoulder past about here. I put my arm on her shoulder and I could feel this crunching going on in her shoulder and we prayed for her for about 30 minutes. The crunching was all gone and she was moving her shoulder and she was all excited.
Then I go home and I’m like, “I wonder if this actually stuck. I wonder if it did.” So I emailed this guy and I asked him, “How are these people doing, anyway?”
He said, “In the glorious name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. Perry Marshall, I am so excited to tell you, they are telling everybody they can’t wait for you to come back!”
I said, “Wow, this is great!”
Now, I’ve got to cover 10 of these things in 50 minutes, which is kind of insane, so I don’t have time to go any more. The church that I attend, a Vineyard Church, we practice this.
I of all people know what it’s like to sit here and pray for someone and go, “I feel really stupid! What if this doesn’t work?” You know, sometimes there’s no obvious result, but sometimes there is. You know what? It’s less risky than going to the emergency room.
I have a few friends who actually go to the emergency room every Tuesday night and they pray for people, and trippy stuff happens sometimes. If you want to read some more of these stories, go here. You can read the whole India story in more detail.
This brings up another thing. You know a lot of the people talk about Christians living by faith. Well, I totally understand and agree with that, but I also think that as you mature as a Christian, you live more and more by experience. That faith leads to results which gives you experience, and there’s kind of an upwards spiral and it’s not just like, “Well, you know, life is miserable, but by and by in the sky, someday God’s going to make the world a better place.”
No, it can be now. I think the Kingdom of God is now. I think a lot of Christians kind of have this, “don’t ask, don’t tell” approach to the higher gifts, and I guess the question that I’d like to raise for people that want to take that approach is, well, if we took the New Testament and took all of the miracle stories out, what would we have left?
I think my brother was right. I don’t see any place in this book that says these miracles are supposed to stop. There’s a little challenge for you on that.
Note: For more information on documented healing events, see my extensive article on miracles which includes videos of live healings taking place, links to mainstream media coverage and recent reports in scientific journals. Read and watch here.
2. “The Jesus story is just an accumulation of myths of a legendary people, all rolled into one über-nice guy.
Let me expand on that a little bit. People say, “The God and the Jesus that Christians worship today are actually amalgams formed out of ancient pagan gods. The idea of a virgin birth, a burial in a rock tomb, a resurrection after three days, eating a body, drinking blood, had nothing to do with Jesus.
“All those things were already in other myths and legends before that, so they just took them all and they kind of rolled them into these Jesus stories. So Christianity is a snowball that rolled over a dozen pagan religions and as the snowball grew, it freely attached pagan rituals in order to be more palatable to converts.”
By the way, I got this verbatim from an email that a guy sent me, so I just went and fished one up, and there you go. This is a very common thing. Well, I would like to reduce this to a question, so let’s look at the logical question behind the question.
I think the question is this:
“If a myth precedes a fact, does that make the fact a myth? Does it logically follow?”
Well, let’s take 9/11 as an example. On 9/11/01, as we all know, two planes flew into the Twin Towers. The Last Jihad by Joel Rosenberg, on the first page puts readers into the cockpit of a hijacked jet, on a kamikaze mission into an American city, but it was written nine months before 9/11.
Does that make 9/11 a myth? Or how about Debt of Honor by Tom Clancy. 1996 – a Japanese 747 crashes into the Capitol, killing most of the top functionaries in the U.S. government.
Or here’s a good one – The Lone Gunman TV series. The pilot episode was about an attempt to crash an airliner into the World Trade Center. It was a government conspiracy to increase defense spending by making it look like a terrorist attack. It aired in March 2001.
So the next time someone tells you that Jesus was a myth, ask them this question: “Name one other resurrection story that stuck. Just one.” I don’t know of any. I think there’s a reason for that.
3. “Science and faith are incompatible ways of thinking. They are separate realms that should be kept separate.”
I’ll tell you a little story. Back in the early 20th century there was a great deal of optimism in the mathematical profession that we were closing in on a theory of everything. What mathematicians were looking for was a set of constructions that made all of the propositions of mathematics form a nice, tidy, complete circle.
Let me explain what I mean by this. How many of you took high school geometry and it was stuff like, “This triangle has three equal sides; therefore, it is an Equilateral triangle.” And then you do all these proofs and you work all this logic from it.
Well, if you take that high school geometry book, there are always four or five things that the book starts with as premises that everybody knows are true but no mathematician has ever been able to prove are true.
For example, “We know this is true, no one has ever been able to prove it. We know it’s true because it works and it’s all consistent, but we can’t prove it.” And they were like, “Someday we’re gonna prove it!”
Well, in 1931 a guy named Kurt Gödel proved that it would never happen. And actually, I think that Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem is just as important as Einstein’s Theory of Relativity. Most people have never heard of it, but let me explain what his Incompleteness Theorem says.
This is the kindergarten version. It says, “Anything you can draw a circle around requires something on the outside to explain it, which you cannot prove.” This applies to everything. It applies to a bicycle; if you build a bicycle, the fact that it’s there relies on something outside of the bicycle.
It’s true of a geometry book, a software program, the English language, or the universe. Gödel’s Theorem was a crushing blow to mathematicians. It was as if they realized, “You mean, we’re never going to make everything flow into a perfect circle?” No. Can’t be done.
Actually, the universe is like an MC Escher painting where you climb up the steps and all of a sudden you’re at the bottom again. There’s a book called Gödel Escher Bach, which takes Gödel’s Theorem, Escher’s paintings, and Bach’s music and shows how they’re all basically the same.
For instance, in Bach’s music the notes escalate and they go up and up and somehow all of a sudden it starts with bass notes again and you didn’t even notice. What does this have to do with the question, “Science and faith are incompatible ways of thinking”?
Gödel’s Theorem says that you cannot do science without faith; it’s impossible. You start with a fact – “I know this because of this, and I know this because of this,” you always go back to some fact that you can’t prove.
Now, what does science do? Science says, “If I drop this cup from my hand onto the ground, it’s going to fall every time. Only past experience shows that to be true. I cannot prove that it’s going to fall again. I always have to rely on some assumption that I can’t prove in science.”
One little extra thing I want to throw in here; the statement that, “Science and faith are incompatible ways of thinking, separate ways of thinking that should be kept separate,” is that a scientific statement?
No, it’s a philosophical statement.
Even a statement about keeping science and philosophy separate requires philosophy. And the statement itself presumes that philosophy gets to say something about science.
That’s exactly what Gödel was talking about.
I’ve written a much more thorough treatment of Gödel’s Incompleteness theorem here: http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/incompleteness/
4. “The history of science is the story of one religious superstition after another being eradicated by reason and logic.”
I want you to think about something:
Where did science come from?
If you study the history of science, you’ll find out that it got started in Greece and didn’t go anywhere. It got started in Rome and it fizzled out and didn’t go anywhere. It got started in ancient Egypt and in China – didn’t really go anywhere there either. It got started in Islam, and every time in those places, it stalled.
Why did it succeed in Europe after failing everywhere else? We all know it launched there and took off like a rocket.
Here’s why I think it happened. In the Apocrypha, the part of the Bible that the Catholics read and the Protestants don’t, Wisdom of Solomon 11:21 says:
“Thou hast ordered all things in weight and number and measure.”
I submit to you that this verse is where science started. That all things are weigh-able, measurable and countable. That there’s a systematic explanation for what goes on in the universe. So far as I know, no one else in the ancient world made a more definite statement about science than Solomon did right here.
Western Christianity believed that the universe was governed by fixed, discoverable laws, and that’s what gave birth to science. The reason that science succeeded in the West and failed in all those other places was that in all those other places, there was no theological basis to believe this.
If you believe that it rained today because Zeus is in a snit with Apollo, how are you going to come up with a systematic explanation that doesn’t invoke some kind of arbitrary, whimsical source?
Christian theology believed that God could create the world and then on the seventh day that He could rest and the universe would continue to do what He told it to do. Therefore, the great scientists viewed the study of science as a way of studying the mind of God.
I would rewrite the question to say this: “The history of science is a story of faith in a harmonious universe being rewarded in weight, number, and measure.”
1,000 years ago you couldn’t take that for granted. Now we all take it for granted, because we figured it out.
5. “The Bible is a translation of a translation of tales cobbled together by Constantine in 300 AD.”
People make a lot out of this. Constantine got everybody together and they hammered out what they agreed was going to be the Bible. “You know, we just don’t buy these books, we’re going to keep them.” A lot of people have this idea that this is when the Bible that we have today came to exist.
I want to show you a book that will correct that notion. This is called Faith of the Early Fathers by Jurgens. I have to mention here that this is another Catholic book. I was raised Protestant. I was a preacher’s kid. We were uber-studious Protestants. We took ourselves real seriously. Some of you know what I’m talking about – “Oh, that kind…starchy!”
We thought that Catholics were bad people. You know, “Go tell them how bad they are!” Well, then I grew up and my brother-in-law, Alan, studies church history. He gets a Ph.D. in church history at Iowa State, not some conservative place.
He went to Iowa State because they had the biggest and best library he could find on church history.
It turned out that most of his professors were atheists. To get a dissertation pushed through these guys was a Herculean task. But he and I would talk about theological stuff, and it was kind of funny because every time I would raise some theological question, he would always say something like, “Well, yeah, the first people to probe that question in detail were the monks in Western Italy in 800 AD and what they said was…” and he’d go off on something.
Anything you could come up with, someone had already thought about it and written about 1,200 books on it. I thought Christianity started all over again with Martin Luther after this burned-out period…oh, come on! Heavens, no.
So this is a Catholic book. I have great respect for Catholics and Catholic theologians and all that. I know somebody will probably want to get in a fist fight about that with me at the end, but I’m telling you anyway.
This book is a collection of all of the earliest writings, and actually there’s three of them. I just brought the first one. It starts at about 80 AD and it’s letters from all these guys that ran churches. Letters from pastors to their congregations, and letters to disciples from their mentors, and it ends somewhere around St. Hilaire of Poitier and St. Cyril of Jerusalem. I don’t know what year this was, probably about 400-500 AD, and it starts at 80.
It goes in order, so you can read 80 AD and then you can read 110 AD and then you can read 125 AD and 300 AD and so forth. In every chapter there are footnotes of the Bible verses they’re quoting. It’s exactly the same.
Pastor Bill Hybels at Willow Creek could use this to preach a sermon out of any page in this book and it would be just fine. It would be scriptural and it would be original Christianity, no different than we have today. Most of these early letters sound an awful lot like the New Testament letters that Paul wrote.
Anyone that tells you that Christianity started in 300 AD is just as ridiculous as saying it started in 1517 when Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door.
6. “St. Paul invented Christianity by making a rabbi named Jesus into God. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were just later fabrications.”
Obviously, the book that I just talked to you about does speak to that, because you can go all the way back to 80 AD and you have a whole body of literature that’s already telling a consistent story.
What’s usually said is that Paul wrote his letters in 40-50 AD and the Gospels were written in 60 – 90 AD and that’s too long. All of these myths would have accrued, so yes, Jesus was probably just this radical guy and he had these radical teachings and then they wanted him to be God and so they made the story about Him being God, and the people were so desperate and oppressed by the Romans that they found it believable – well, let’s do a comparison.
Paul Tibbetts was the pilot of the Enola Gay, which was the plane that dropped the bomb on Hiroshima in 1945. He wrote a book in 1998, shortly before he died, called Return of the Enola Gay. How many years after 1945 is that? Fifty-three years after the bomb was dropped.
I found this book at my father-in-law’s house because he’s into World War II. You go over there and he always has The History Channel on. I started thumbing through this book, and the reason Tibbetts wrote the book was to correct revisionist history.
Revisionist history said, “If we had just been a little nicer to the Japanese, we should have just gone over there and talked to them, and they would’ve…”
Tibbetts is saying, “No! Let’s get this straight.” He goes into extensive detail about the political situation and all this stuff that was going on behind the scenes. He tells what it was like to get in that plane, what it was like to let the bomb loose and go into a 135 degree angle and feel the shock wave from the bomb and the brilliant flash of light and think, “Oh my word, what did I just do?” and all that.
Now, does anybody doubt that his autobiography tells you more or less accurately what happened? Is anybody going to reasonably doubt that he doesn’t remember what happened, 53 years later? I don’t think so!
So if Jesus died in 33, what’s 53 years out from 33 – isn’t that 86? That’s like getting to the outside limit of when they said the Gospels were written.
Is there any reason to think that the Gospels were any less reliable?
Considering there are four of them and considering they don’t all perfectly line up or quote everybody verbatim the same way, they don’t all tell stories the same way – four independent accounts – can anyone reasonably think that the Gospels are any less reliable than his story? I don’t think so.
And if you compare it to other things in history, a lot of those things were written even further after the fact than that. I would like to point to the consistency of early teachings about Jesus and raise the question: Why do substantially different teachings about Jesus only appear after 150-200 years? Isn’t that kind of what you would expect?
I rest my case.
7. “Evolution disproves God.”
That’s a good one. I like that one. I have a question for you. Who knows what that is? DOS – how many of you have used DOS somewhere in your early childhood? This is a screenshot of DOS 3.0, 3.3, which is about 1985. You all remember DOS:
C:> dir
C:> dir /w
C:> format c:
When you tried to format the hard drive, did it say “Are you sure?” I don’t remember. Early versions did.
Now here we have Windows XP with Internet Explorer, which is about 2005. Let me ask you a question: let’s say that DOS never got modified by the guys in Redmond, Washington and it evolved into Windows XP all by itself.
Imagine that DOS adapted, that it had a capability built in to where it would sense that it needed an Internet connection and it needed a web browser and it needed Outlook, and that it needed a mouse and updates and antivirus software. And let’s say that it would rearrange its code and then test different versions with some version of natural selection until the pieces started to work.
Did that happen? No. If DOS had actually evolved all by itself, off without any exterior tampering, tinkering or code writing from any software engineers, and it had just done that, would you be more or less impressed with the person who wrote the first DOS program?
You would go, “How did you do that?” You could go to China and for $2 you can buy a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of Windows. All those versions, especially the ones in China, they don’t have the little 3D thing on them. It’s grey and it has Magic Marker on it ‘Windows XP’.
Now, the copies of copies of copies of copies, they all had mutations, didn’t they? And the marketplace had a chance to select them. Does anyone know of copies of Windows that were better because of the mutations?
No.
Now, I just tried to apply the usual theory of evolution to DOS and everybody got a chuckle out of it. First of all, everything that evolves that we have any experience with, evolves because of some ability to do so or some kind of design or something acting upon it.
At the very least, if we’re going to even imagine that DOS could have evolved into Windows XP, we have to imagine that it has some kind of special program inside that’s ready and willing to rearrange all the pieces.
You know what? I am totally open to the possibility that God planted a cell in the ocean and that cell had some kind of magnificent program that could eventually evolve into everything that’s on Planet Earth. I am open to that.
And if that happened, then God is even more impressive than the version of God that says, “Well, OK, now we need apes, so let’s put an ape there, and now we need people, so let’s put a person there..”
I’m not trying to get into some debate about Genesis 1; this is simply an engineering argument. If evolution is true, then God is even more impressive than they thought God was before anyone thought of evolution!
8. “In their arrogant superiority, Christians think everybody else is going to burn in hell for all eternity.”
Let’s get the most riling questions out on the table. I want to point some scriptures out to you. Little things are kind of tucked in there that are easy to miss.
John 15:22 – Jesus says, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin.” Hmm, that’s interesting.
Luke 11:30 – Jesus said, “The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom and now one greater than Solomon is here.”
Let’s look at this again. “The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them” – so what does this tell you about judgment? This isn’t like some cowering guy staring at God, getting pounded; this is anybody who has anything to say about what he knew, didn’t know, did and what he did not do, and what they did perhaps in a comparable situation.
Let’s look at this one. Matthew 11:21 – “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.”
Well? That’s a statement about two people, now, isn’t it? “Tyre and Sidon would have believed if they had Me.” Do you think that gets taken into consideration? I think so.
Acts 17:29 – Paul refers to idol worship and he says, “In the past, God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent.”
Now, this always comes up, somebody always says, “Well, what about the guy in Africa that never heard about Jesus?” They’re like, “I have to get this guy figured out before I decide if I’m going to go for this Jesus thing. I’m not sure if this is fair. I think this is all a setup. What about all these people?”
Here’s my concern: If you’re that guy, I’m not real worried about him. Not that the missionaries shouldn’t go talk to him and all that. In the Great Commission – “Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature” – God told us to do that for a reason.
This is just my opinion, but I suspect that guy in Africa, he has no missionary, Bible, or anything, I think if he looks up in the sky and goes, “Somebody made all this, whoever You are, I’d like to know you,” I think God can respect that prayer.
What I’m concerned about is that guy will rise up in the judgment and testify against the guy who used him as an excuse. If you look at all of these verses, the theme is, “Hey, guys, you knew an awful lot. What did you do with it?”
“If Tyre and Sidon had seen what you have seen, they would have repented in sackcloth and ashes.” The people he was talking to saw a lot. They saw the dead raised, they saw the blind see.
9. “The Bible is riddled with contradictions and therefore cannot be the perfect word of God.”
I’m going to take an interesting approach with this. I brought with me three different versions of the Bible. I’ve got a King James New Testament, a New Living Translation Bible and a New American Standard. I could have brought an NIV, but all you guys probably have one, because that’s kind of the popular Bible translation.
Do they all read the same? No.
I had to sign this thing before I came that I understood that Willow Creek has a doctrinal statement. One of the things in the thing that I had to sign was that I understand that Willow Creek says that the scriptures are inerrant in their original writings. That’s a very common thing that you’ll find in the Protestant church, that scriptures are inerrant in their original writings.
Do we have the originals? No. What we have are thousands of Greek manuscripts and there are slight differences with some of them. You could make a whole little tree of this copying error and that. You could put it all together and we could open all three of these Bibles up to John 5 or Ezekiel 34 or Revelation 12 or any book and we could read them side by side.
And rather than getting 12 decimal places of precision, I think what we get is more like there’s an outer edge on one side or the other on how you can interpret something, and then there’s something sort of in the middle.
Maybe the King James seems to be here and maybe the NIV seems to be here, and maybe the Catholic Bible seems to be here. But they’re all kind of within this range of variation. So there’s some wiggle room, not like 12 decimals of precision, but more like maybe two.
No matter what Bible you read, did Jesus rise from the dead in all of them? Is adultery a sin in all of them? Is it not all right to lie, cheat, and steal in all of them? Is there a debate between predestination and free will in all of them? Yes.
I had this realization one day; “Hey, wait a minute! I don’t have to sit here and nitpick every last verse that some skeptic wants to pick a fight with me about and make me explain everything that doesn’t quite seem to fit together, because you know what? This is like a puzzle that you’re trying to put together and some of the edges are fuzzy and I can’t put it perfectly together. And that’s all right.”
I was emailing back and forth with an atheist and he’s quibbling about the different tomb stories of the Resurrection. I don’t think they contradict each other, but in order to make them fit, you have to make a couple of assumptions before they fit.
He’s trying to duke it out and I said, “I don’t feel like defending the idea that the Bible is infallible. I’ll just say for today that I have four stories that were pretty close! So what do you think?”
He didn’t know what to do.
I said, “Well, Jesus died on the cross, you are a sinner, God created the world, 12 disciples went out and preached. The story’s pretty clear. How many of these little nit picky things from the New Testament that you brought up because you found them on some website do you have to get all straight before you get the big picture here?”
Try this on for size; the Bible is the word of God with a lower case w. But if we’re going to use a capital W, what is the Word of God? Jesus! Jesus is the Word of God. The Bible is the written testimony, inspired by the Holy Spirit, testifying to the Word of God. There’s a verse that says, “No one can confess Jesus Christ is Lord apart from the Holy Spirit.”
Let’s not put the Bible above the Holy Spirit.
You realize if you want to sort out all those puzzle pieces, you need the Holy Spirit to help you do it. And a person who does not have the Holy Spirit is not even going to be willing to do that. That’s why they’re arguing with you.
So when I get in these debates, I say, “Let’s just assume that this is like any other piece of history. Someone wrote it down as best they could, and here we have it. Let’s make a judgment from what’s in front of us. So what do you think?”
Did they just make all this up? Like perhaps, Jesus didn’t really die; they pried him off the cross and he was almost dead and then he was in the tomb, and people in the Middle East had these clever ways of reviving almost dead people and then he popped out. He looked so good, he looked like Superman, and everybody said, “Wow! You’re the Son of God!” Yeah, that’s what happened! Sure, that’s what happened!
Guys that are pulled off crosses when they’re almost dead always inspire people three days later to like change the world! That’s what happened!
Sorry, I’m getting a little sidetracked… here’s a fun one:
10. “More people have been killed in the name of religion than any other cause in the history of the world.”
Let me show you a book, called The Black Book of Communism. How many of you think this is cheery? Oh, yeah, if you’re feeling a little too good today, just read this one. This book documents the genocide of 160 million people in the 20th century alone – mostly by atheist governments.
Remember the Cultural Revolution under Chairman Mao? Well, that was a great period in China’s history, wasn’t it? How about Stalin? Oh boy, Stalin loved children. Yep, that guy just loved puppy dogs and children. He was such a nice man. 160 million people! Do you realize that’s more people than all the religious wars of the whole history of the world put together?
Some people say, “Well, it was just a coincidence that they were atheists.” All right, well, you can believe whatever you want to believe, but there does seem to be a correlation. Let’s recognize the question behind the question.
First of all, I don’t think you can overstate just how dangerous a worldview atheism actually is. I’m sure there are atheists here, and I’m glad that you’re here and you’re welcome.
When my brother slid into his faith crisis, I wanted to argue with him and he wouldn’t; and I’m not sure that would have been the healthiest thing if we had argued. I think it was probably a good idea that he declined, but I was ready to go. In truth, he was dragging me with him. I was scared because he was raising all kinds of questions.
I started going to Willow Creek 15 years ago and I started leading Seeker Small Groups. Those groups are where people who do not necessarily believe the Bible or Christianity get together at a table, and so every other Sunday for a couple of years I got seekers in there pummeling me with questions, and I thought I’d heard everything. Well, when Bryan and the Internet came along, I had no longer seen everything!
It was intense. Bryan was asking all kinds of penetrating questions and I was going to all these websites and it was like walking into machine gun fire. One of the things that I did was decide that I had to duke this out. So I started this website, www.CoffeehouseTheology.com, and it has emails that you can sign up for and see what it’s all about, if you like. If people replied to the emails, the emails came back to me.
The reason I did that was that I wanted to know if enough people came through the website and sent me emails, if Christianity cannot stand up to the test, I was going to find out! I decided that I was going to take everyone on and I was going to see if someone can punch a hole in this thing. And there were some scary moments. I was like, “Oh my goodness, these are big questions!”
I probably answered 10,000 emails during the last 6 years. There have been a LOT of people and a lot of conversations. The first thing I’ll tell you is that nobody’s punched a hole in Christianity. I think it stands up very well. If you have a question, there’s a book or website or something that has a good answer to it.
Here’s the other thing; nobody comes out swinging like the new breed of atheist like followers of Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and all of those guys. These guys are furious! People talk about Muslims being extreme? Well, I get emails from a lot of Muslims and none of them come out swinging like the atheists do. They’re angry. And Richard Dawkins says things like, “Teaching your children that there is a God who would reward or punish you, people that do that are worse than child molesters.” That’s what he says.
It’s a war. What’s the track record? 160 million dead people. Now, this is not a battle of guns, because the pen is mightier than the sword. This is a battle of the pen. This is a battle of truth and belief systems. I think Christians have a moral obligation to know what’s going on, because if you don’t know what’s going on, you’ll get picked off by a skeptic.
The reason we have science today is because Christianity said there is a logical rational universe that was designed by an intelligent Creator. And the reason we have democracy is because Paul said, “There is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free; all are equal in Christ Jesus.”
The most cherished Western values come from Christianity. Don’t surrender them to someone who has an axe to grind.
As a former born again Christian who used to go door to door for Jesus telling everyone they were going to hell and I knew God, let me give you my testimony why I want nothing to do with the American Christian church.
Besides the church being wrong on just about everything, the real reason is that God gave us a brain. So if someone tells me that I can fly, so go ahead and jump off a bridge, I’m not going to do it.
So when I am told that God loved me so much that he sent his own son to die for me, and that God is UNCONDITIONAL love, and that God loves me even more than my own earthly father. BUT, if I don’t want to believe in this wonderful love, THEN, this wonderful God is NOW conditional and burns me in hell forever. WTF! WHAT, STOP AND THINK!
That does not compute. And of course you can’t have a real God that is perfect love, but then will get jealous and turn to evil.. sorry.
WAKE UP and serve the Real Jesus!! The one in the bible, not the one taught by the insane church.
peace out
donovan
editior
spiritnewsdaily.com
Hi, in regards to these questions, i would like to add another. “the bible has scientific reason in it”. what are peoples opinions on that?
See http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm
hey mr.marshall. You said you are opened to the posibility that God used the process of evolution to create life. So, if this is true, Adam and Eve and the stories presented in first chapters of genesis are just parables? And if men evolved, then there was never such thing as the ” Fall of Man”, hince sin was never introduced in the world; man was never separeted from God and no one needed to be reconciled. SO there was no need for a Savior which means Jesus died in vain.
“Denying the creation of man by divine and supernatural intervention is denying the need for Christ. Therefore, belief in evolution could be (to some extent) compatible with the idea of “a” God – but certainly not with the God of the Bible, and even less with Christ. ” i quoted this from wikianswers
When Genesis says “God breathed the breath of life into the man and he became a living being” I take that to mean that a human life creature was given a soul and that creature was Adam. And yes, from that point the Adam and Eve story is more or less literal.
1. Miracles at Lourdes and during the canonization process are evaluated by scientists.
2. No. Christ is the best documented figure in antiquity. He’s mentioned in pagan literature (Tacitus). And he’s really not a total nice guy. Ask the merchants he threw out of the Temple.
3. No, they can be combined (I always did).
4. No, not really. The chronicle of Genesis 1 roughly parallels evolution.
5. No again. The Greek Septuagint was a translation, but the Hebrew was around. New Testament documents were primary sources. Constantine didn’t cobble any Bible; the Council of Chalcedon did.
6. Not really. St. Paul invented nothing. All significant doctrine was on the street maybe within a month of Pentacost.
7. No, it doesn’t. God guides evolution.
8. In the NT, that’s not a major theme. I lean toward Abba Poemen, a desert father. Don’t judge anyone.
9. There are contradictions (look at where the Holy Family starts out in Matthew and Luke). I like Chesterton: The Bible is the riddle, and the Church is the answer.
10. I think all wars are driven by money.
dear mr. McEvoy,
i try to add your answer with mine
1. Miracles at Lourdes and during the canonization process are evaluated by scientists.
sickbrain : Miracles at Lourdes and during the canonization process : i don’t know what do you mean (google.co.id translate) but i think scientists already know Miracle (baby’s born, why human breath since they born until dead,.. etc) but they never know what should they have to do while they life. They try to make science as a their god. That’s why Jesus Love Children.
2. No. Christ is the best documented figure in antiquity. He’s mentioned in pagan literature (Tacitus). And he’s really not a total nice guy. Ask the merchants he threw out of the Temple.
sickbrain : all pagan literature confess Him! but they blinded by their own mind, even their leader try to make his mind inject by something Horror and he teach that scary injection, as a rule to scare his students. He know what should do! (Jesus said I know what i’m doing)
3. No, they can be combined (I always did).
sickbrain : what a stupid question. when they ask this what are they use, notebook or pc? mr mcEvoy don’t trap with this kind question.
4. No, not really. The chronicle of Genesis 1 roughly parallels evolution.
sickbrain : supertition = science+faith?
5. No again. The Greek Septuagint was a translation, but the Hebrew was around. New Testament documents were primary sources. Constantine didn’t cobble any Bible; the Council of Chalcedon did.
Sickbrain : ok
6. Not really. St. Paul invented nothing. All significant doctrine was on the street maybe within a month of Pentacost. : ok
7. No, it doesn’t. God guides evolution.
sickbrain : Perfect, God Create everything, human try to change it, even want to be god.
8. In the NT, that’s not a major theme. I lean toward Abba Poemen, a desert father. Don’t judge anyone.
Sickbrain : ok, Jesus never scary His Students. He Promise that with Love (His doctrine) you can saved.
9. There are contradictions (look at where the Holy Family starts out in Matthew and Luke). I like Chesterton: The Bible is the riddle, and the Church is the answer.
Sickbrain : try read Bible with your heart, and put Jesus first in your heart not brain.
10. I think all wars are driven by money.
sickbrain : MR. mcEvoy : you are saying that not me.
best regards,
sickpeacer
http://sickbrain.tk
just some minor points on your list.
2. No. Christ is the best documented figure in antiquity. He’s mentioned in pagan literature (Tacitus). And he’s really not a total nice guy. Ask the merchants he threw out of the Temple.
-other than the bible (which for obvious reasons cannot be used as proof of jesus) i don’t think jesus is better documented than genghis kahn, king tutenkhamen, julius ceasar, alexander the great or a multitude of other historical figures.
7. No, it doesn’t. God guides evolution.
-if god guides evolution, he is clearly terrible at it. you would think that someone with infinite knowledge and infinite power would create a human that doesn’t fail after 80 or so years, or continually suffers from disease and discomfort.
10. I think all wars are driven by money.
-so the war between the protestants / catholics, sunni / shiite, muslims / jews or any other conflict you can think of are solely to do with money?
2. indigo speck of damaged milk a pot, that’s why until today, they are all only remember the mistakes of people. but was never given the benefit of even just a little.
7. great reason! who created disease? did God create disease? when God created Adam and Eve? snake did! who’s snake? what do snake had done until now? can you describe snake behavior? have you ever think like snake?
10. yes it was! history told that religion Initially, they spread the religion to make other countries believe the doctrine they bring. after their destination is reached, money is one source of problems faced by developed countries until now.
as a living creature on earth, we can not dodge that nationalities, religions, beliefs, thoughts, opinions and others differ from one another. have you thought if one of it were disappeared there will be a discrepancy or imbalance? that’s why Jesus came.
sickpeacer
You sent me an email. I tried to respond but to no avail. So I’ll leave a comment. I have sought, and I have found…religion to be repressive and dangerous. It numbs the mind. It warps our children. If you really want to seek, seek HONESTLY. Seek real evidence. That is what the scientific method offers us. Evidence is necessary for discovering what life is all about – not hand-me-down, barbaric, ignorant, bronze-age myths filled with violence, slavery, rape and murder – oh, and as Christ preaches, eternal fire. You are not being honest with yourself, if you believe there is a “personal” god observing and caring for humanity, only to torture the majority (Remember the camel and the eye of the needle?) for an eternity because they didn’t humbly grovel to him and ask his forgiveness. This is a bronze-age mentality filtered through medieval feudalistic arrogance. You are simply being a naive, grown-up child. “I want my daddy!” There is no supernatural father figure watching your every move, and you must learn to live with it. Don’t waste your life with other sheep participating in a collective fantasy. Shed your superstition like a cicada and fly to heights unobstructed by pointless, stifling faith. As the T-shirts and bumper stickers say: “I’d rather grow up than be born again.” Be brave. Be mature. Be enlightened. Be an independent thinker. Take the leap to a world-view based on evidence and common sense.
Religion is the basis of most wars? No. However, my observation is that avowed Christians are just as likely to kill as non-Christians.
I went to a “Willow Creek” church in Colorado Springs and was horrified to see a military color guard as part of the service on the Fourth of July. The Church was showing respect for troops who, by oath, agree to kill anybody at the behest of their commanders.
I went to this huge Church during a hot summer of the Iraq War. Several thousand French oldsters had died because of the heat. A clique of church members said that “It served those Frenchmen right for being against the USA’s war.” According to their view even the innocent must be punished if they don’t support US Policy.
I left this church and did not return.
I got out of that “Christian” church as fast as I could.
RE: Idiots at the Willow Creek church…
There was one other guy who consistently condemned religious hypocrites, know-it-alls and showoffs.
Jesus.
And he did it in no uncertain terms.
And you could consider what would happen if there were not soldiers who are willing to kill for you. It’s a two-way street. One of the things I learned from a soldier friend is that “tracers work both ways”. So they’re also willing to die for you. For duty, honor and their comrades. Grow up.
Thanks for your article. May the Lord Jesus use your work for the good of His kingdom.
However, I believe your answer to the “burn in hell for eternity” skirts the issue by saying that God will be just toward the people who haven’t heard of Jesus, and salvation from Hell through Jesus is only really an issue between the people who have had exposure to the gospel. I do not disagree with the points you made, but the problem of Hell is still there. Maybe this will help?
The idea of “Hell” being an eternal torture chamber is confirmed to be Islamic/Quranic. Pick up a Qu’ran and anyone can read about how Allah of Islam tortures unbelievers forever in hell (Sura 98:1-8) where their “companions are the flames” (Sura 2:39) and they spend their days eating apples shaped like demon heads filled with molten lava (Sura 44:40-49). That is NOT the Christian God, yet many Christians unknowingly worship Allah by thinking that the unbelievers will be tortured forever and ever…. it’s all about intimidation & fear…. It claims we are supposed to come to god because he hates us if we don’t. It is supposed to make us go out and witness for fear of people burning in hell forever. That is not the teachings and practice of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not die on the cross to solve “God’s own problem” of an eternal torture chamber he set up for the unsaved. THIS is what people have a problem with. And they have a problem with it because it is WRONG.
Rather, through Jesus we have something that we wouldn’t have anyway. That is: eternal life. He did not come to condemn those in the world, but to save it (John 3:14-17). One’s fate as a lost sinner is to perish- to die once, and then, according to prophesy to die a second time (completely and finally) , before God rebuilds the universe & restores all things to purity and goodness. (Revelation 21:6-8)
Jesus Christ is like Noah’s Ark (Genesis 7:17-23) the leading of Lot out of Sodom (Genesis 19:12-26) and the blood on the door of the Passover Lamb (Exodus 12:21-30) . God repeatedly saves all those who are in His will and who trust Him from destruction. In all examples, those who are destroyed are destroyed entirely, they are engulfed by this concept of “Death”, of ceasing to be- whether through fire, water or other means.
We all die (physically and mentally ceasing after a period) because of sin (ungodly decisions). Our God is just and He would not allow his moral creatures to live eternally in the misery and suffering caused by sin, and is why he cut off Adam and Eve from the tree of life after they sinned (Genesis 3:22-24) which resulted in their deaths. So why would God allow our sinful lives to end once, but then go on to force the wicked to exist forever in their sinful state in a place like hell? You may or may not believe that- the truth is, many Christians do. I did so myself for a while. But it really just doesn’t make sense.
Eternal torture in Hell is not shadowed in the great stories of the Bible, nor is it revealed in the end time prophecies (Malachi 4:1-3) or explained in the Christian’s personal relationship with Jesus (John 10:10).
The worse heresy to be found here is the assumption that all human beings are eternal. But it is ONLY through Jesus Christ, His atonement for our sins and our fellowship with Him that we can be guaranteed any sort of eternal life. (1 John 2:25). Both the biblical and practical truth is that our individual existences began the day God created each one of us- we did not pre-exist nor is there any condition that would require us to continue existing eternally. If pre existence were the case God would just be a “body maker” and a “heaven or hell assigner”. It is hard to respect a god like that.
Many people who are not Christians have had “near death experiences” where lying spirits show them a heavenly afterlife filled with beings who do not confess that Jesus is Lord. The visions some have had of a torture chamber hell are equally as dubious & sometimes almost cartoonish, much like what can be found in the Qu’ran. Many people have experienced “past life regressions” that prove their “souls” lived previous lives. The practice of Necromancy has confirmed that demons can pose as departed “spirits” of people. The enemy of God is working hard to make all the lost and confused humans think they just don’t die. Death is the greatest tragedy a human being can encounter, it’s so shocking that we are eager to cling to any evidence, demonic or imaginary, that tells us we do indeed continue to exist in some form. Imagine about how different things would be, how different our attitudes toward death would be, if we actually DID have an eternal existence outside of God’s special provision through Jesus Christ? First of all, there would be PROOF! But we don’t have any proof. It is all “wishful thinking”. And it makes sense that Satan would want us to believe in life after death for the wicked, even in hell, because his number one lie was “you shall surely NOT die”. (Genesis 3:4)
We are not inherently eternal, and God will someday destroy all that which is evil. We all live once, die once, and then are judged by the creator. (Hebrews 9:27) Many will perish in the final, “second death”, but some will continue on to eternal life to spend forever with God. It is difficult to object to something so simple. It is a simple thing to run to the arms of our life-giver, who healed us, cared for us and suffered so painfully for us in order to restore us to a relationship with God & impart His eternal life to be lived in the world to come.
Dear Jean
Please briefly notice (re: your comments on March 11, 2010):
1- “Allah” in Arabic means The God and does not belong only to Islam. As He introduces Himself in the Holy Quran, He is the ultimate creator and He is merciful.
2- From the same verses of Quran which you referred to, we understand that these sentences are addressed to those who opposed The God and His messenger and mislead the people. Also we read there, “Except who God forgives”.
3- The very important point is that Quran emphasizes that all of our (good and bad) actions are preserved/documented and we will feel their results, the exception is from mercy of The God, who will forgive as He wants (some due to Holy Jesus).
I think human being is going through several stages of evolution.
1- His body (as an animal) designed and developed through long biological processes on Earth and became capable of having wisdom, love and . .
2- A very specific transformation occurred which lead to creation of Adam and Eve with human body.
3- Moral evolution of us in biologic and social environment is going on, now. Guidance of peoples by God through His messengers and many other means like this site and Mr. Perry Marshall’s contributions are part of this process.
4- Life after death is the next process where the real and clear results of our intentions and actions will be manifested in happiness in heaven or sadness in hell.
I am very interested to know how (through what intelligent process) DNA is designed. Our knowledge about evolution and especially about the parts which have closer relation to direct intention of The God is very limited!
Regards,
Kooros
Greetings!
I would like to take this opportunity to bring your attention to an error in an otherwise excellent article.
You wrote:
“Let’s look at this one. Matthew 11:21 – “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.”
Well? That’s a statement about two PEOPLE, now, isn’t it? “Tyre and Sidon would have believed if they had Me.” Do you think that gets taken into consideration? I think so.”
Actually, I believe that: Korazin, Bethsaida, Tyre, and Sidon were not poeple, rather they were cities! He was addressing and comparing the residents of various cities.
I think that your article, otherwise, was outstanding and very illuminating!
Thank you,
Michael Dennison
mikenloki@aol.com
Greetings!
I just finished reading the article: “Gödel’s Incompleteness: The #1 Mathematical Breakthrough of the 20th Century” which your website links to. Another fascinating article!
As I was reading it, I had a funny thought. A sentence in the article reads as follows: “A “theory of everything” – whether in math, or physics, or philosophy – will NEVER BE FOUND. Because it is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE.”
The funny part was as you further read the article, it shows like the Liars Paradox, that Godel’s theory may actually be an actual “theory of everything”!
It does describe that EVERYTHING is incomplete, that there is no such thing as a closed system, and that “there are ALWAYS more things that are true than you can prove.”
Basically, any “system of logic or numbers that mathematicians ever came up with will always rest on at least a few unprovable assumptions.”
(all of these ideas are within the first few paragraphs of the article…)
So, in fact, Godel’s Theory of Incompleteness is actually a “Theory of Everything”! EVERYTHING is Incomplete! :)
Yes, I can probably be accused of circular reasoning, however, then so is the Liar’s Paradox. LOL
Michael Dennison
Hi Perry!
I must admit upfront and I am expecting to get some reaction (not from you but from others on this site), that I am an atheist, but I figured I may as well ask you a few questions.
Very recently, a Christian club and a Free Thinkers club at the university I attend sponsored a debate and invited the head of the Free Thinking movement from the States and a theology professor who happens to be Christian. In my opinion, the theology professor did a terrible job of making a rebuttal to the points raised by the Free Thinker. So I wondered whether you might give a shot at these, since they do have something to do with the 10 points that you brought up.
One of the points that the theology prof. raised was that even scientists admitted that they required a creator for the Big Bang to happen when it did. To this, the Free Thinker replied that this was not the case; that in fact, nothing was required to create a Big Bang. This is because before the Big Bang, there was nothing. Now, philosophy states that nothing can come from nothing, but upon further logical examination, that is an impossibility. If nothing can come from nothing, then that is something, as it is a law. Laws can only exist in the presence of something, just like gravity can only exist if at least 2 entities are involved. So that theoretically, something could come from nothing, as there could not be a law preventing this, or there would have to be something.
Another fact arguing for the existence of God, so argued the theology professor, was the clear existing of objective morality. He argued that no matter which culture, things like infanticide and cannibalism of children is generally frowned upon, to say that least. His argument was that if no such things as objective morals existed, this would not be the case as people would find self serving reasons to participate in such actions.
My question is two-fold. My first question deals with whether morals are truly objective in this sense, since I could think of many situations in which would put the objectiveness of these morals to the test. But my bigger and more pressing question is whether just because objective morals exist(let us pretend, for argument’s sake, that they do, they would automatically indicate the existence of God? My inclination would be to assert that they may have their basis on other grounds which are objective and shared by every member of humanity. Now, the question of which attribute every member of humanity shares can be easily answered; existence. Could ‘objective’ morals not be based on existence?
This brings me to your assertion that science is so prolific in western society because of Christianity. You stated that science “failed” in the other cultures you mentioned because they were not Christian. I would argue that science did not fail in these cultures at all. First off, with your argument about Greece, “science” (though it really was more philosophy than “objective science” as we know it today) flourished during this time period. Greeks (and Egyptians before them, and Babylonians and Sumerians before them) had a better understanding of Earth and celestial bodies, as well as time measurements, than during the entire period of staunch Christian domination in Europe (I would call this the period from about 400 B.C.E. to about 1450-ish B.C.E.). An understanding of this nature, such as the curvature of Earth, would not be reached in Europe again for a good 2000 years. To boot, the Greeks figured all this out within a period of about 300 years instead of the millennium of stagnation that followed the Christionization and Fall of Rome (not that I am blaming the former for the latter). In the time period when the Greeks figured these things out, their religion had morphed into more cultural rather than explanative status. If you want further proof of this just look at Greek literature as it changed from Homeric to Drama and beyond. Rome did not contribute all that much to science, I mean sure, they had a few engineering advances, but nothing that changed foundations. And then came nothing in Europe for a thousand years. The only centres of learning in Europe at this time were in the Iberian Peninsula, an area dominated by the Almohad Caliphate, an Islamic ‘kingdom’. The real centres of science during this time period were places like Baghdad and Cairo. The Islamic faith embraced science, being quite frankly the only reason why mathematics developed by the Greeks and Egyptians and Sumerians, were not completely lost.
I would also suggest, so as to unskew the statistics that you use, that you should not look at the number of people killed by various regimes, but at the percentage of the population that these numbers made up. It might also be advisable to weight this number to account for the “advance” in the killing power of weapons (though the word advance leaves a bad taste on my mouth, since it seems more of a regression to a dark age). Just because the religious persecution of the Huguenots did not kill as many people as say, Stalin did, does not mean that either did not cause the re-settlement of as many percent of the population. People before this century simply didn’t kill as many people because it takes much longer to behead someone than to pull a trigger. As for the number of people killed, I would suggest that all losses incurred by the native populations of the Americas after European contact ought to be counted as well (about 90% of all Natives within the Americas), since exploration happened by Christians for “God, Gold, and Glory”, amongst other things. The killing of natives often being authorized because of their “non-membership in the human race” since they were un-Christian Savages.
I would also argue that Communism is an ideology that very closely follows the format of major religions. Both require faith and belief. Both promise rewards, but not those experienced within this life, one of a better society for the children, grandchildren etc., and one for a life after this. Both preach for the love of thy neighbour, and what is even more peculiar is that both hold that this love is greater if you do not have any gain out of doing so. Communism seeks equality for the poorest of poor, religion seeks forgiveness for those that strike you. That is to say, both hold personal sacrifice as a central concept (Lenin and others of the revolution died for the masses, Jesus for everyone).
Thank you in advance for considering my questions and concerns.
Regards,
-Greg
Oh, I see that I forgot to make my main argument for the science topic. I am an objectivist. This entails that I believe that A=A and that A cannot be B. In other words, that existence exist. The reason I am an atheist is therefore that my world view does not allow for the change of something into something else just because something ‘feels like it’. This is also the major premise of science. Science has no meaning if everyone believes that praying to a spirit in a rock (let’s address animism, since it is less likely to be taken offensively) can make a lump of iron in your hand turn into steel. Science, if it had to be explained within a sentence, is the question of “what is it”, and the search for the answer to this question. In this way, it works very much like human thought, as humans always try to categorize things (also the reason why in most religion the naming of things by a deity is so important, as naming allows for the assignment of attributes and existence by proxy). Therefore, science cannot function fully in a society that believes “There but for the grace of God …”. This ties into the thousand years of stagnation in science in European history.
Regards,
-Greg
P.S. Sorry for the long post above
Greg,
I encourage you to being with “If you can read this, I can prove God exists” – http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/ifyoucanreadthis.htm
The assertion “nothing can come from nothing” assumes that nothing is something and that is self contradictory.
“Something always comes from something” is a proper statement of real cause and effect. The universe had to come from something. This is true whether stated in terms of cause and effect or formal mathematics. See http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/incompleteness
Objective morality: I see this as an issue of authority, and as a very practical matter. You are right, one can postulate all kinds of explanations for morality, including the assertion that it’s just practically necessary and that “natural selection” weeds out excessively immoral societies. This is true.
But the real problem is, if you have no ability to invoke objective morality in real life, in real conversations, in courts of law, then the only tool you have is “might is right.” The statement “it is wrong to walk into a daycare and mow down toddlers with a machine gun” has no more weight than your ability to get other people to agree.
This is CONSIDERABLY different than a culture in which people believe that if they violate absolute moral laws, there will be absolute consequences dictated by an absolute Ruler and Judge.
I submit to you that the atheist position – which rejects any authority on which moral absolutes can be established – ultimately leads to totalitarianism and genocide.
Lenin and Stalin killed ONE THIRD of Russia’s population.
Chairman Mao killed about 10% of China’s population.
Clearly none of these three people had any fear of an Absolute Judge. You can chalk it up to coincidence if you wish, but I think that would be an unreasonable dismissal of hard evidence.
So the simple fact is, in absolute terms, 2-3X more people have been killed by atheist regimes than by religion. Despite the fact that 2/3rds of the human race is deeply religious. Go find out how many actual people were killed in the Crusades. As for American Indians, count them. (And ask yourself if the Indians were really killed for explicitly religious reason – and not disease and good old fashioned greed?) The numbers undoubtedly point to atheism being far more cruel than any religion.
You are repeating a LIE that most people believed the earth was flat for thousands of years. That is absolutely not true. That was invented in the 1800’s. People all over Europe knew the earth was round since the time of the Greeks. As a matter of fact I maintain that you are largely misrepresenting science and astronomy in medieval Europe. Read “The Victory of Reason” by Rodney Stark. Science and reason progressed steadily in Europe from the fall of Rome to the Renaissance.
There was no “Dark Ages.” That’s an urban legend too. Again, read Stark. Or look up “Dark Ages” in Wikipedia.
Science in Greece, Rome, China, Islam and Egypt got to a certain point and stalled. To exactly your point, those teachings were to some extent lost in all those cultures. In the Christian West Science became a juggernaut. I don’t think that’s a coincidence. Any more than the prosperity of the West is coincidence. See also my comments at http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/top10/comment-page-1/#comment-1406
That a supreme being would punish all or most of humanity in a tormented fiery eternity purely because a man disobeyed a diety by eating a piece of fruit offered him by his wife at the instigation of a talking snake is inherently incredible. Would any Christian believe such a tale if it were found in say an old Hindu document? Is it any less preposterous an explanation of human evil than the Greek myth about Pandora’s box?
I think the point of the trivialness of the fruit is that mankind will give up paradise for the most mundane of rewards. Do we not all know that from personal experience?
Humanity suffers from the sin of rebellion against their Creator God. The Bible teaches that God made a perfect place for Adam and Eve, and only gave them one law to obey. In their perfection, they were more intelligent than any man or woman today could ever dream of being. The had perfect understanding of God’s Will for them. It was not for eating a piece of fruity that man fell from perfection, it was for heeding satan instead of God. This act itself was wilful disobedience to a loving and Gracious God, and His punishment was a loving act. Otherwise, Adam and Eve would eventually partake of the Tree of Life and live forever in a state of rebellion and lostness from the only source of goodness and light, and the world would have been a more miserable place to live than it is now.
God blessed Eve and womankind by His wise counsel; He told Eve that He would give her a seed…it would be a special seed that would defeat the evil which was unleashed upon creation because of her disobedience; this seed was predestined by the wisdom of God and was sought by satan in each generation; he wanted to destroy this seed. He thought he did when Jesus Christ was crucified, but instead, as God prophesied in Genesis, His heel was bruised, but satan’s head was crushed. All the rest of God’s Word is true also, and everything God says will come to be.
Believe before it is too late, sir.
Glenda
You give a very neat explanation, but I have a question for you. Why would God permit
evil in the first place? Could it be he created in the first place?
Isaiha 45;7 I form the light and create darkness: I Make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things
The best answer I have for this question is the one the apostle Paul gave in his letter to the Romans.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
____________________________________________________
So, God has His reasons, and His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
It is rather humorous reading some of the comments here as some think they are so smart…so intelligent…that they have questions that no one has ever thought to ask, or answers that are so intelligent and wise that no one has ever thought of them before…that, that…possibly…they may even be found to be God themselves? By simply saying, “I don’t believe in God…”; or “I don’t need a crutch..” or as Ted Turner said, “I don’t need a Savior…”…yet, they will die…they cannot by thinking, grow another inch…; they have no idea whether there is God or not…they willingly are ignorant of Him, just as scripture also says. Yet, they choose to err on the side of damnation and eternal death.
The evil that God created was for the purpose of exposing evil as evil. As scripture says, “All things work together for good to those are called according to His purpose, to those who love Him…”.
please check your version of the Bible, translator differ from explaining the Greek texts, try reading from the New American Standard Bible.
my previous comment was intended to jim Mcgillivray’s reply to glebda’s.
jesus says that there is no rebirth .but according to hiptonism its proved. so this is a big lie carried out by the god..isnt it?
“according to hiptonism its proved”.
Oh, so there is a proof of reincarnation?
The things that people say under hypnosis, it can be subconscious, their dreams, fake, even demonic.
I believe the only “reincarnation” will be our resurrection on the judgment day.
The Bible is best understood if it is accepted for what it is.
Webster says ” ‘The ability to’ or ‘the attempt to’ commune with
GOD” This is what the Bible helps us do. So, it is a book of
“mysticism”. As such it must be understood in a mystic manner and
it even tells you how it’s done.
The key to understanding eternal destiny is in the “communion”
aspect of our mystic connection or disconnection to GOD.
The real Hell of eternity is ‘The permanent disconnection’ to GOD. Heaven and Hell aren’t mere places or states of mind. They’re
also choices. Think on “Fiery Passion” and have you ever been
angry at yourself for “screwing up big time”? Welcome to the
“Weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth”. Jesus plainly said
“Look, I’m standing at the door knocking. Whoever opens the door
I will go into him and eat and drink with him.”
As far as torment and suffering go, “Gehenna” or the “Lake of
Fire” is to be seen as just that; a lake. You know what’s in a lake. That’s right, life. Those fish don’t look like they’re in
pain to me. But, at the same time, are they productive? Swimming,
eating and making little fish is all they are doing. That is
the totality of there purpose of existence. They neither acheive
nor fail. They’re just there. Hell is sheer boredom. Your pain is,
and rightfully so, self inflicted. You’ll be p**’d at yourself.
When you struggle with the Old Testament, I always find it useful to have a look at what our Jewish brothers and sisters have to say. Some of the best minds have been at it since the beginning and the Jewish tradition encourages argument, different points of view and bold interpretations.
Rabbi Harold Kushner has my favorite interpretation of the Garden of Eden story in his book “How Good Do We Have To Be?” and puts a totally positive spin on everything in it.
I apologize if I can’t explain it properly, but here is my layman’s attempt:
The story symbolizes God’s ultimate gift to us, freedom of choice. Freedom to not live like animals: completely innocent, blameless and passive. But instead to become human (and aware of sin) with all the consequences, and to feel dimensions of pleasure and pain that animals don’t even come close to feeling.
Eve wasn’t seduced by Satan to do something wrong. Eve symbolizes mankind’s evolution from animal to human. She saw that the only way to be human was to dive into the deep end of the pool so to speak. She (like Pandora, by the way, who opened up the box of all the things that the gods wanted to keep from humanity, both good and bad), didn’t impose sin and suffering on all her descendants. Eve opened up the world to us; she gave us LIFE in the full richness of being human. Eve symbolizes the courage that it takes to be human and live a human life of higher highs and lower lows with purpose and good will.
Don’t pass up the richness and joy you can get from your religion by obsessing over a literal reading of the bible. The parts of the bible that describe these grand concepts are poetry, not prose. Focus on the implicit beauty and higher meaning, not the explicit “facts” that nobody can ever prove or disprove.
Well, Leo, let me just ask you a simple question.
Do you think you’re perfect?
Suggest you read Steve Allen on the Bible Religion and Morality.
It will enlighten you.
I doubt that with every fiber of my being !!
I read the book. It’s lightweight drivel. If you go into this argument looking for a way to justify your preconceived notions, it’s just the thing. If you want to truly get to the bottom of this in some way that makes you happy and enriches your life, read C.S. Lewis, Spong, or others that have dedicated their lives and their considerable intellect to it.
“If you go into this argument looking for a way to justify your preconceived notions, it’s just the thing.”
Too Shay!
Did you know that the Great Pyramid’s full design is a monument to the Lord Jesus Christ gematria 3168? as stated in Isaiah 19 verses 19,20. For example 1 side of the full design base is 3168 Roman palms = 9123.84 inches, 2 sides = 0.3168 Roman leagues = 18247.68 inches, 3 sides = 0.3168 Roman leagues = 27371.52 inches and 4 sides = 3168 Roman feet. The inch measurements above symbolize that the earth’s circumference of 9123.84 megalithic miles = 18247.68 Roman leagues = 27371.52 Roman miles and a 31680 mile perimeter square fits tangent around the 31680 furlong radius earth, also 31680 miles = the circumferences of the earth and the moon (via 22/7). Encyclopaedia Britannica says the Roman mile was 1000 Roman paces = 5000 Roman feet, the Roman foot was divided into 12 Roman inches and or 16 Roman digits, The Roman palm was 3 Roman inches and the Roman league was 1.5 Roman miles they did not define the Roman mile but Noah Webster defined it as 1600 yards in is 1828 Dictionary. This version of the Roman mile was used in the Great Pyramid’s full design. When the earth was in its original perfect condition the earth’s mean circumference also aplied to the equator, the 18247.68 Roman league circumference turned 18247.68 inches per second = 18.24768 Old English miles per minute = 1824768 yards per hour. The equator’s rotation speed is very revealing when stated in Roman miles it is 0.3168 Roman miles per second = 19.008 Roman miles per minute = 1140.48 Roman miles per hour, compare this with 31.68° north crossing Bethlehem, 31.68° = 1900.8′ = 114048″. There are many pages of graphics with explanations on this and related subjects on my website http://www.thegreatdesign.com
Yours Sincerely James Heyworth
Q#1: If God is the father of Jesus than who is His grandfather & grand Mother?
Q2: If now the Chrisitianity is according to Hazrat Essa Peace be upon HIm (Jesus)saying. Than why Christian r so volgur? and beating innocent ladies child and people by drone attack?
Q3 If Jesus eat food than what is the food of Allah
Q4 Why u hate others even pope bendicate clearly hate The Prophet Muhammmad PBUH
1. God has no creator. Jesus Himself in spirit has no creator. He was incarnated as a human and his spiritual father was God.
2. I am sorry that some Christians are violent, just as you are sorry that some Muslims are violent. Jesus was nonviolent.
3. God is not a physical being and does not eat
4. I don’t think the Pope hates your prophet, nor do I.
Hi, P.Marshall! Just want you to know that I’m so thankful to God for your ministry.
Keep up the good work! Do not become weary of answering tough questions. Always find strength on God’s grace.
I wish to ask why you go to huge lengths to criticize Christians, but say nothing about Muslims, especially when Christianity and Islam do not differ that much. If your going to criticize Christianity so harshly, then I think you should also criticize Islam and Judaism with a similar approach.
I will leave that to other people on other websites. I prefer to criticize that which I’m familiar with.
Dear mr. Perry Marshall,
I will leave that to other people on other websites. I prefer to criticize that which I’m familiar with.
without losing my respect to you, actually i want to know you more, but i think you are a very private person. as an author you have to reflect on Linux as a open source or open mind utility, as a human that want to share opinion, knowledge or gift. I think you are wise enough. let us work as a humble in this transitory world.
regards,
http://sickpeacer.tk <– comment?
“This triangle has three equal sides; therefore, it is an Isosceles triangle” from the ‘science and faith are incompatible section’.
That would be an equilateral triangle, not an Isosceles triangle. Unfortunately you will lose just about every scientist at that point, and they will disregard almost everything you say if you can’t get something so basic right. I am a christian, who is a scientist (Ph.D. in chemistry), and sloppy work like this discredits some of the genuinely good things you say.
Also, you would be a lot more credible if you didn’t claim that DNA proved the existance of God, but rather that it was highly supportive. It might go down well with christians, but they’re already converted.
Orson,
I stand corrected, and I edited the article accordingly. Just an ordinary goof in public speaking and we didn’t catch it in the transcript.
Also I have been *extremely* clear about what I mean by the word “proof” in my DNA argument – all over the place, in fact. Proof only to the extent that science can prove anything, which is induction.
That said, the inference to design is 100%. As reliable as gravity.
Easy mistake to make I guess…I just know what my atheistic scientific colleagues are like when it comes to this kind of thing.
I agree totally that the inference is 100% towards design. Also, take into account the fact that no one has come close to showing a viable route by which the code appears in DNA or how the translation machinery is generated, even assuming an RNA world, and we have a situation where methadological materialism, the founding tenet of modern science,is genuinely challenged.
I think your work is really important by the way. Getting the word out there about the truth isn’t easy. I have written a novel (Deadly Medicine), in which one of the main characters is challenged by this kind of argument, the reviews on amazon uk have been very positive, and a number of atheist friends have been genuinely challenged to think differently. It makes it more interesting that I’m related to Charles Darwin too!
Interesting. Along those lines: “The Emperor of Scent” by Chandler Burr is a true story that reads like a fiction novel, one of the best books I’ve ever read. It’s about the battle to replace a failed theory of how our sense of smell works (shape), with one that actually makes accurate testable predictions (molecular vibration). Striking parallels to the Darwin debate. Best of success selling your book!
Iteresting note that you are related to Charles Darwin.
I seem to recall reading that Mr. Darwin said that he would recant his theory if someone could find a species that depended on another species for its existance.
What about humanity depending on trees to produce oxygen, and the lowly earthworm to till the soil lest it become hard as a rock? Surely there are more, but these come to mind at this time.
Darwin married Emma Wedgwood, his cousin! (his mother was a Wedgwood too). It was his wife and the Wedgwoods (along with the clergy) who were instrumental in him changing the second edition of the ‘Origin of Species’ to contain the word creator.
I started a petition on the 150th anniversary of the publication of the 2nd edition to change the fact that modern scientists dismiss the idea that there is a creator in all their research. It hasn’t been wildly successful so far, as you can see: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/2ndeditionpetition/ (only 22 have signed it so far!!)
Hello,
I think all of you need to go back and learn some basic biology, especially you Glenda. Where did you hear that and what significance do the relationships found in symbiosis or ecosystems have in disproving Darwin? If anything, they support his theory. You must understand that Darwin’s theory, like any theory in science, would’ve been thrown out like yesterday’s bath water, if it didn’t explain the evidence well and make predictions. You also have to keep in mind that evolutionary theory does not deal with the origin of life or DNA; only the origin of species, i.e. life is a prerequisite. Since Darwin’s death, there’s been a lot of information that has been amassed about the natural world (e.g. fossils, genetics, etc.), and none of it disproves his theory; in fact it only supports it, and it does so very well. Stop trying to incorporate religion into science. God will always come out looking badly. Instead, explain the natural world with natural explanations. If you want to read a Christian biologist’s point of view on evolution, read “Only a Theory” and “Finding Darwin’s God” by Kenneth Miller. He’s a cell biologist and a Christian, and he doesn’t let his belief in God cloud his reason or his ability to find out about the natural world. Evolutionary theory is so well supported that it is preposterous to try to knock it down with juvenile, uneducated arguments. If you want to argue against something, first you have to learn all about it. Would you rather seek the truth and find out how intricate, interconnected and remarkable “Creation” really is, or would you rather pout about the fact that reality doesn’t fit into your simple-minded world-view?
Yours in the quest for truth,
Christopher McGreger
It is impossible to try to communicate our ideas since they are an eternity apart. As I said in another comment, Darwin himself said he would deny his “theory” which it still is…only a theory, if anyone could show that one species was necessary for another species to exist. I have posed two such proofs:
Man needs oxygen, trees produce oxygen; trees need carbon dioxide, man exhales carbon dioxide;
Without the earthworm, the earth would harden in to rock hardness; man could not cultivate the soil; man would perish of starvation.
I am sure there is more but I am not worried about it…I know there is a God…I know Whom I have believed, and the He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him agains that day…the day when life as I know it now turns into eternal life with Him.
If you are so sure of your beliefs why do you find it necessary to demean others who do not believe as you do?
Since I believe what I do, as a Christian, I do not demean you, I only seek to convince you and share the message of the Gospel with you…which is the loving thing to do if you beieve it is a matter of eternal significance in another persons existence.
That is exactly the point of contention though. is it not? You see his actions as demeaning others. He has the same opinion of your wishing “to convince you and share the message of the Gospel with you…which is the loving thing to do if you beieve it is a matter of eternal significance in another persons existence.” To him, and I’d wager most atheists, that is demeaning, as it could be perceived as an insult against the capability of the human mind, the thing that atheists tend value most. You trying to convince him of something that he perceives as so illogical is interpreted by him as you lying to him. It would be the same as Reagan talking to Castro about the “Evil Empire”. Reagan may very well believe what he said, but Castro was aware of the Iran-Contra Affair, Vietnam, and many other events (such as the backing of some rather nasty dictatorial regimes in South America). So what Mr. McGreger is trying to do is convince you of his view point to such a degree where you can “Shrug off the oppressive shackles of the mind and accept reality, truth, and existence for what it truly is, without relying on the crutch that a hypothetical supernatural power provides”. He is actually complimenting you by arguing with you, since he is not under the impression that you are “lost causes”.
Hope that explains some of the reasoning behind the atheist viewpoint.
To Gregor Cuddeback and Glenda Smith:
As many others, including myself, have written before, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights guarantee freedom of and from religion. This is unique in the world and you should be proud to be an American for that reason alone, among many others. Please understand that I don’t give a hoot what you believe, as long as you don’t try to harm others or unduly in influence vulnerable minds with your beliefs (like teaching pseudoscience in science class). It’s when you try to shove your beliefs down others’ throats that people like me become angry.
Good point Gregor, regarding my point of view. I haven’t said what I believe, but to evangelicals, everyone who doesn’t think like Falwell is an atheist. To accept well-tested scientific theories does not preclude belief in a god or gods.
Speaking of evolutionary theory, Glenda: You have further demonstrated your lack of knowledge about science in general by calling one of the best tested theories in science “only a theory”. If it were “only a hypothesis” then there’d be cause for worry. Obviously, the laymen’s use of the term “theory” has led to some confusion when laymen hear scientists speak of some theory or other. A theory is an explanation, which is, in the case of evolution, the best explanation for mounds and mounds of data. What about other theories, which you know presumably nothing about, because they haven’t been singled out for scornful attacks by the Religious Right, like: the germ theory of disease, gravitational theory, atomic theory, etc., etc.? These are all very well founded and like evolutionary theory, provide predictions about the world from which you benefit on a daily basis. In the case of biology, evolution is so well tested that to refute it on the basis of your worldview, merely makes you appear like a stubborn child sticking his bottom lip out and insisting that he’s right because “I said so”. This is a very poor position to put yourself in. Learn about evolution. God won’t smite you. It will amaze you at how wonderful it actually is. Maybe it’s God’s way of working things out. Read the books by Kenneth Miller I recommended. He, like you, believes in a Christian God.
I think that evolution is absolutely valid. However the normal explanation of how it works is completely wrong. http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/new-theory-of-evolution/
I think the founders established freedom of religion in the USA for all the right reasons: To prohibit a state religion which has been the bane of almost every civilization that tried it, to prevent religious persecution of those who hold different views (and those who abhor religion), and because it was necessary to pull together Anglican Virginia, Baptist Rhode Island, Catholic Maryland, Quaker Pennsylvania, etc., etc.,. But the main reason, IMHO, was to encourage religion to experiment and intermingle at the same levels of courage and daring as our democracy was going to encourage the states to experiment with governing.
Hi, Perry and Orson, I got this funny feeling that both of you are too self obsessed arguing your qualifications (bible, paper trial’s, Phd’s knowlege) than whether you can proof or feel or believe (even you have not seen a vision yet) without a doubt that Almight GOD exists! Be SIMPLE, CONVICTED, simply say YES there is GOD or NOWHERE there can be! GOD judges ON helping you to believe Him, Bible (you have not seen the actual ancient languages’ scripts- so, Bible is alien but not impossible at times nor unuseable presently, to me) , Judgement Day, etc….everything! Not your
choice on anywhere to turn
around to is my 2millions’ worth advice (plse note I’m a very lazy orphan, due to under nutrition wartime parents & birth, owning paycheck to paycheck, penniless, yet surviving). Most readers would not understand, appreciate nor want your complicated and boring arguments’ methods on GOD, the Almight! Must good websites be rhetoric, beating around the bush on issues of GOD (‘Prophet
Isa’/ Jesus did said, ‘..Leave them- which mean useless to me..’). Why? Is it for fear of prosecutions, threats, sensitivity…? Bible or all other major religions MUST always BE TRUE as well as PROVEN TRUE in all its’ proclamations.
Please Call a spade a spade, a YES be YES said by…. do you know who (ok, plse…keep this simple proclamation secret, between all of us humbly, won’t you. Plse grant me this as I do not want favor?
Thank GOD, I can contribute such length windingly (and I am so POORLY EDUCATED). Goodbye (forever?) friend, Jerry. My days are numbered as I am an old man. GOD BLESS U AS MY BRO’..one day.
Bye my friend
I’ll have to buy that book. Thanks for the wishes of luck…I definitely need a healthy dose of that (or something else)!
Orson. If the only criticism of Perry’s thinking you can offer is to pick on a banal nomenclature error then it doesn’t say much for your argument whatever that might be. And to suggest that all of Perry’s work will be disregarded by scientists because of that is peurile and hardly becoming of a PhD.
I know how scientists think, and if they see that someone makes a mistake about something simple, then they will conclude that lots of other things are also flawed. Not all people will think like this of course. I am very much behind what Perry is doing, but in science credibility is everything, and that means being pedantic sometimes. I have learned this to my cost when writing things in the past.
Martin. Adding to the above, I realise the way I expressed my comments on Perry’s writing could be seen as a bit abrasive. It comes from being half German!! Germans are very straight talkers (sometimes too much so).
Dear Perry,
In you remarks about the “word” of God as opposed to the “Word” of God, there seems to be a big problem.
God’s spoken Word became the Word made flesh to dwell among us.
IF 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
God’s printed, written, God breathed Word is all important because they pointed to Jesus. He is the Word in the beginning, He was the Word with God, and He was God the Word John 1, and He was the Word made flesh John 1:14.
Jesus Himsels said that He came to “fulfill” the Word. If the written Word of God is not total truth, and Jesus said, “I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man can come to the Father except by Me”. Now, I do not think ANYONE could come to the Father, the living and true God, without the printed Word of God. He HAD to reveal Himself to man that Way. The written Word was God breathed, it is living and sharper than a two edege sword. It is not JUST another book; its writings are not just ink on paper or papyrus.
Therefore, it is ALL important for us to know…”…faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God…” faith is the prequisite of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
I am not in any way putting down the Bible. I think my respect for the Bible is evident on this website. I am just saying that the Bible says relatively little about itself and it is not on the same level as Jesus Himself.
It says all it needs to say about itself; it is God breathed, inspired by God Himself, given to holy men of old. It does not come from the mind of man, but from the mind of God, therefore, it is Christ. It is living, powerful, sharper than a two edged sword, able to separate the marrow from the bone, or it gives life to a dead spirit. It convicts of sin and convinces of righteousness; it is a lamp which gives us light to see in the darkness of a world of sin and evil, it is a light to show us where to walk lest we stray into the evil path. Without the written Word of God, the Holy Bible, we would have no knowledge of God or of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus said, “The earth will perish but My Word will live forever…” His Word is eternal, it is divine because it is from God…it is His very breath which still breathes life into the nostrils of those who read with hearts that seek truth.
Christ is not jealous of His Word…His Word is His Spirit indwelling every jot and tittle of every word penned thousands of years ago, or printed yesterday.
This is why I respect and love the Holy Bible…It is God’s breath giving me of His eternal love and grace everytime I read it, or hide it in my heart. It is Himself forming me into His spiritual image, reviving me from the dead sinner that I am every day.
Creation scientists can out debate any evolutionist scientist. Therefore, they are not some kind of simpleton pseudo -scientists.
No scientist can prove or disprove God. God must make Himself known to them spiritually. Creation is the first thing that should draw man to God, that He does exist. This argument always makes me think of the painting of an American Indian, astride a pinto pony, his arms raised to the skies as he sits upon the pony on the edge of a deep ravine and exclaims, “Oh, Great Spirit…”.
He had no missionary, no Bible, only creation. But God said in His Word that there are people who would know Him, and would be a law unto themselves, their conscience being their guide. God wrote His Word upon the hearts of mankind, and when the mind overrides the conscience, his heart becomes hard and denies God.
“No scientist can prove or disprove God. God must make Himself known to them spiritually.”
This is true. I have read Mr Perry’s article “If you can read this I can prove God exists”, however even though I understand his argument (I hold and honours degree in electronic engineering and do understand information theory), I am inclined to disagree with him. Science is the study of the natural, and God being super-natural by definition falls outside of the realms of science. All the article does is show that (so far) there is no natural(or scientific) explanation for the information in DNA. This does not imply a supernatural explanation to an objective person, merely the lack of a natural explanation.
The proof of God is much simpler; the witness of his people about who He is and what He has done. It does not start with creation, but with witness. We the redeemed are living proof of God and his love. If God so chooses He will make Himself known with or without us. He is the ultimate witness to His existence
This does not satisfy athiests as they fail to understand the distinction between the natural and the supernatural.
Have fun.
This statement hints on the disparate worldviews of people of faith(believers) and people of science(atheists).
I also think that the theory outlined in the article “if you can read this, I can prove that God exists” is not proof at all but for different reasons. I suspect that if God existed at all then proof, such as God breaking laws of nature would be abundant. To the contrary they are rare, like UFO sightings and unconvincing to the scientific mind and most of them have simpler explanations.
Scientific minds tend to not believe in the supernatural because they seek an explanation for every observation and if you say ‘God did it’ we would want to know how (by what process of natural laws).
I understand clearly the difference between natural and supernatural. I notice that the more we understand science and reason, the less magic, or miracles, or supernatural events actually occur. Loss of belief in a deity is often a consequence of this viewpoint.
I do not accept ‘witness’ as proof of God’s existence.
That is subjective and non reproducible. If God chooses to reveal Himself, let me know.
Miracles ARE abundant. There are books and books and books about them. Ask a room of 100 people and you will easily find 10-50 who’ve experienced something.
My challenge to you: Pray the DANGEROUS prayer. Ask in humility and sincerity that God will show himself to you. I promise you, he WILL.
What is abundant is events that people cannot explain. This doesn’t mean that they are miracles. I would also suspect that many peoples belief in miracles is influenced by wanting to believe. Magicians do tricks that amaze the uninformed but we know they are not magic, just good illusionists.
Perry, I’ve been a believer for most of my life and noticed that God rarely does anything that cannot be better explained by co incidences and magical thinking. The tricky things in the Bible are easily explained now as bad translations and bad interpretations and I can now accept what I truly believe and not what I read in a book.
I have prayed that “dangerous prayer” many times and it feels like I’ve finally opened my eyes and the room was empty. To pray again would feel hypocritical, like going back to a plan that didn’t work. This may not sound humble but I am totally sincere. It’s a challenge I have taken and a promise that you cannot honor.
Hi, Mr. Martin, I had stated my recent 2 visions of CHRIST 1st time somewhere here in this blog. Frankly, I, as an orphan (holy bible says all orphans, widows, 1st born children belongs to GOD ALMIGHTY, our heavenly, holy and TRUE Father. ARE ANY OF THESE?) is increasing impatient each day yearning for more visions as I, a single orphan has ‘more’ needs as I aged.
But yes, it is stated in the Bible that GOD ALMIGHTY ONLY appears to who HE chooses and NOT all the times, even to his prophets! Imagine the world has 5 billions population! I believe here GOD ALMIGHTY TEST our faith strength in HIM, (and our whole life undergoes various tests) which JESUS said can move a mountain. JESUS, also, said what you asked for in prayers, BELIEVED you have received it…WILL be… Which is why New Testament is of great importance to believers!
Human has been praying for 2000 years! Why? Is it stupidly believing as the PHDs, scientist said so on no queries on religion?
Perhaps, coincidentally like when you do good, no crime, be a respectful son, lawful citizen and does a number of stuff like having a ‘clean’ body which are stated in the HOLY bible, you may be blessed with visions which are indeed rare!
Worthy here, to also pay close ATTENTION to Mr. Perry and Ms Glenda Smith (a living bible).
I feel sad with those so called PHDs’, Scientists’, Atheists’ who log in here without real questions to know something in life nor contribute nor kind to the less knowledgeable. Instead they proudly just ridicule (blaspheme is religion greatest sin) GOD ALMIGHTY (thank goodness, JESUS did asked for forgiveness and said, ‘Holy Father forgive them for they do not know what they do…’) with some prepared school texts/theories (but they did not admit how once a great man’s theory the earth was flat was never queried till proven wrong much, much later. So is the scientist agument on accupuncture, herbs, etc) simply to argue till the cows come home. Who offended them to be so confrontational (rude). Better just do not believe but do no wrong.
This may be crap or pushing down the throats so to speak to other faithfuls (no disrespect whatsoever), non-believers and especially atheist which I was, without bible knowledge during my youth. I guess I was full of energy, good-looking, confident, egotistic, trying to show ‘capabilities to earn a living’ to peers, own neighbours/communities, ladies and the ‘quiet, uneducated ‘ elders then. Such is survival instinct.
Cheers, Mr. Martin, the choice is yours
O Great Spirit, who art before all else and who dwells in every object, in every person and in every place, we cry unto Thee. We summon Thee from the far places into our present awareness.
O Great Spirit of the North, who gives wings to the waters of the air and rolls the thick snowstorm before Thee, Who covers the Earth with a sparkling crystal carpet above whose deep tranquillity every sound is beautiful. Temper us with strength to withstand the biting blizzards, yet make us thankful for the beauty which follows and lies deep over the warm Earth in its wake.
O Great Spirit of the East, the land of the rising Sun, Who holds in Your right hand the years of our lives and in Your left the opportunities of each day. Brace us that we may not neglect our gifts nor lose in laziness the hopes of each day and the hopes of each year.
O Great Spirit of the South, whose warm breath of compassion melts the ice that gathers round our hearts, whose fragrance speaks of distant springs and summer days, dissolve our fears, melt our hatreds, kindle our love into flames of true and living realities. Teach us that he who is truly strong is also kind, he who is wise tempers justice with mercy, he who is truly brave matches courage with compassion.
O Great Spirit of the West, the land of the setting Sun, with Your soaring mountains and free, wide rolling prairies, bless us with knowledge of the peace which follows purity of striving and the freedom which follows like a flowing robe in the winds of a well-disciplined life. Teach us that the end is better than the beginning and that the setting sun glorifies not in vain.
O Great Spirit of the heavens, in the day’s infinite blue and amid the countless stars of the night season, remind us that you are vast, that you are beautiful and majestic beyond all of our knowing or telling, but also that you are no further from us than the tilting upwards of our heads and the raising of our eyes.
O Great Spirit of Mother Earth beneath our feet, Master of metals, Germinator of seeds and the Storer of the Earth’s unreckoned resources, help us to give thanks unceasingly for Your present bounty.
O Great Spirit of our souls, burning in our heart’s yearning and in our innermost aspirations, speak to us now and always so that we may be aware of the greatness and goodness of Your gift of life and be worthy of this priceless privilege of living.