Atheist Anne Rice’s Surprising Discovery
Bestselling Author Anne Rice:
Noted for the painstaking research behind her historical fiction, an atheist of 36 years makes a surprising discovery when she turns her attention to the mystery of the historical Jesus
Excerpt from Author’s Note in Christ The Lord Out Of Egypt
©2006 Anne O’Brien Rice. Used by permission.
Every novel I’ve ever written since 1974 involved historical research. It’s been my delight that no matter how many supernatural elements were involved in the story, and no matter how imaginative the plot and characters, the background would be thoroughly historically accurate. And over the years, I’ve become known for that accuracy.
If one of my novels is set in Venice in the eighteenth century, one can be certain that the details as to the opera, the dress, the milieu, the values of the people- all of this is correct.
Without ever planning it, I’ve moved slowly backwards in history, from the nineteenth century, where I felt at home in my first two novels, to the first century, where I sought the answers to enormous questions that became an obsession with me that simply couldn’t be ignored.
Ultimately, the figure of Jesus Christ was at the heart of this obsession. More generally, it was the birth of Christianity and the fall of the ancient world. I wanted to know desperately what happened in the first century, and why people in general never talked about it.
Understand, I had experienced an old-fashioned, strict Roman Catholic childhood in the 1940’s and 1950’s, in an Irish American parish that would now be called a Catholic ghetto, where we attended daily Mass and Communion in an enormous and magnificently decorated church, which had been built by our forefathers, some with their own hands.
Classes were segregated, boys from girls. We learned catechism and Bible history, and the lives of the saints. Stained-glass windows, the Latin Mass, the detailed answers to complex questions on good and evil – theses things were imprinted on my soul forever, along with a great deal of church history that existed as a great chain of events triumphing over schism and reformation to culminate in the papacy of Pius XII.
I left this church at age eighteen, because I stopped believing it was “the one true church established by Christ to give grace.” No personal event precipitated this loss of faith. It happened on a secular college campus; there was intense sexual pressure; but more than that there was the world itself, without Catholicism, filled with good people and people who read books that were strictly speaking forbidden to me.
I wanted to read Kierkegaard, Sartre, and Camus. I wanted to know why so many seemingly good people didn’t believe in any organized religion yet cared passionately about their behavior and the value of their lives. As the rigid Catholic I was, I had no options for exploration. I broke with the Church. And I broke with my belief in God.
When I married two years later, it was to a passionate atheist, Stan Rice, who not only didn’t believe in God, he felt he had had something akin to a vision which had given him a certainty that God didn’t exist. He was one of the most honorable and conscience-driven people I ever knew. For him and for me, our writing was our lives.
In 1974, I became a published writer. The novel reflected my guilt and my misery in being cut off from God and from salvation; my being lost in a world without light. It was set in the nineteenth century, a context I’d researched heavily in trying to answer questions about New Orleans, where I was born and no longer lived.
After that, I wrote many novels without my being aware that they reflected my quest for meaning in a world without God. As I said before, I was working my way backwards in history, answering questions for myself about whole historical developments—why certain revolutions happened, why Queen Elizabeth I was the way she was, who really wrote Shakespeare’s plays (this I never used in a novel), what the Italian Renaissance really was, and what the Black Death had been like before it. And how feudalism had come about.
In the 1990’s, living in New Orleans again, living among adults who were churchgoers and believers, flexible Catholics of some sophistication, I no doubt imbibed some influence from them.
But I also inevitably plunged into researching the first century because I wanted to know about Ancient Rome. I had novels to write with Roman characters. Just maybe, I might discover something I’d wanted to know all my life and never had known:
How did Christianity actually “happen”? Why did Rome actually fall? To me these were the ultimate questions and always had been. They had to do with who we were today.
I remember in the 1960’s, being at a party in a lovely house in San Francisco, given in honor or a famous poet. A European scholar was there, I found myself alone with him, seated on a couch. I asked him, “Why did Rome fall?” For the next two hours he explained it to me.
I couldn’t absorb most of what he said. But I never forgot what I did understand—about all the grain for the city having to come from Egypt, and the land around the city being taken up with villas, and the crowds being fed the dole.
It was a wonderful evening, but I didn’t leave with a feeling that I had the true grasp of what had happened.
Catholic Church history had given me an awareness of our cultural heritage, although it was presented to me early and quite without context. And I wanted to know the context, why things were the way they were.
When I was a little child, maybe eleven or younger, I was lying on my mother’s bed, reading or trying to read one of her books. I read a sentence that said the Protestant Reformation split Europe culturally in half. I thought that was absurd and I asked her, was this true? She said it was. I never forgot that. All my life I wanted to know what that meant.
In 1993, I dug into this early period, and of course went earlier, into the history of Sumer and Babylon and the whole Middle East, and back to Egypt, which I’d studied in college, and I struggled with it all. I read specialized archaeological texts like detective novels searching for patterns, enthralled with the Gilgamesh story, and details such as the masonry tools which the ancient kings (statues) held in their hands.
I stumbled upon a mystery without a solution, a mystery so immense that I gave up trying to find an explanation because the whole mystery defied belief. The mystery was the survival of the Jews.
As I sat on the floor of my office surrounded by books about Sumer, Egypt, Rome, etc., and some skeptical material about Jesus that had come into my hands, I couldn’t understand how these people had endured as the great people who they were.
It was the mystery that drew me back to God. It set into motion the idea that there may in fact be God. And when that happened there grew in me for whatever reason an immense desire to return to the banquet table. In 1998 I went back to the Catholic Church.
But even then I had not closed in on the question of Jesus Christ and Christianity. I did read the Bible in a state of utter amazement at its variety, its poetry, its startling portraits of women, its inclusion of bizarre and often bloody and violent details. When I was depressed, which was often, someone read the Bible to me, often literary translations of the New Testament—that is, translations by Richmond Lattimore that are wondrously literal and beautiful and revealing and that open the text anew.
In 2002 I put aside everything else and decided to focus entirely on answering the questions that had dogged me all my life. The decision came in July of that year. I had been reading the Bible constantly, reading parts of it out loud to my sister, and poring over the Old Testament, and I decided that I would give myself utterly to the task of trying to understand Jesus himself and how Christianity emerged.
I wanted to write the life of Jesus Christ. I had known that years ago. But now I was ready. I was ready to do violence to my career. I wanted to write the book in the first person. Nothing else mattered. I consecrated the book to Christ.
I consecrated myself and my work to Christ. I didn’t know exactly how I was going to do it.
Even then I did not know what my character of Jesus would be like.
I had taken in a lot of fashionable notions about Jesus—that he’d been oversold, that the Gospels were “late” documents, that we really didn’t know anything about him, that violence and quarreling marked the movement of Christianity from its start. I’d acquired many books on Jesus, and the filled the shelves of my office.
But the true investigation began in July of 2002.
In August, I went to my beach apartment, to write the book. Such naiveté. I had no idea I was entering a field of research where no one agreed on anything—whether we are talking about the size of Nazareth, the economic level of Jesus’ family, the Jewish attitudes of Galileans in general, the reason Jesus rose to fame, the reason he was executed, or why his followers went out into the world.
Vast Landscape of Jesus Scholarship
As to the size of the field, it was virtually without end. New Testament scholarship included books of every conceivable kind from skeptical books that sought to disprove Jesus had any real value to theology or an enduring church, to books that conscientiously met every objection of the skeptics with footnotes halfway up the page.
Bibliographies were endless. Disputes sometimes produced rancor.
And the primary source material for the first century was a matter of continuous controversy in which the Gospels were called secondary sources by some, and primary sources by others, and the history of Josephus and the works of Philo were subject to exhaustive examination and contentions as to their relevance or validity or whether they had any truth.
Then there was the question of the Rabbis. Could the Mishnah, the Tosefta, and the Talmuds be trusted to give an accurate picture of the first century? Did they actually mention Jesus? And if not, so what, because they didn’t mention Herod, who built the Temple, either.
Oh, what lay in store.
But let me backtrack. In 1999, I had received in the mail from my editor and longtime mentor a copy of Paula Fredriksen’s Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews. I had read a substantial part of this book in which Fredriksen re-created beautifully the Jewish milieu in which the boy Jesus might have lived in Nazareth and in which he might have gone to the Temple for Passover along with his family.
Fredriksen made the point strongly that Jesus was a Jew. And that this had to be addressed when one wrote about him or thought about him, or so it seems to me.
Now six years later, I have produced a book which is obviously inspired by that scene which Fredriksen wrote, and I can only offer my humble thanks to her and acknowledge her influence.
Of course my beliefs are the polar opposite of Fredriksen’s as the book Christ the Lord reveals. But it was Fredriksen who steered me in the right direction as to exploring Jesus as a Jew, and there my serious research of him began.
Health Crisis
But to return to the year 2002. As I began my serious work, a call came from my husband. He was experiencing the first symptoms of a brain tumor from which he died in less than four months.
We had been married for forty-one years. After my return to the Church, he had consented to marry me in the great old church of my childhood with a priest who was my cousin saying the words. This was a marvelous concession coming from a committed atheist. But out of love for me, my husband did it. Forty-one years. And he was gone.
Was I given the gift of purpose before this tragedy so that it would sustain me through it? I don’t know. I do know that during his last weeks, my husband when he was conscious became a saint. He expressed love for those around him, understanding of people he hadn’t understood before. He wanted gifts given to those who helped him in his illness.
Before that he had managed, though half paralyzed, to create three amazing paintings. I must not neglect to say that. Then after that period of love and understanding, he slowly lapsed into a coma, and he was gone.
He left more than three hundred paintings, all done in fifteen years, and many books of poetry, most published during the same period, and thousands of unpublished poems. His memorial gallery will soon move from new Orleans to Dallas, Texas, where he was born.
I went on with my quest right through his illness and his death. My books sustained me. I told him about what I was writing. He thought it was wonderful. He gave me glowing praise.
From that time on, December 2002 when he died, until 2005, I have studied the New Testament period, and I continue to study. I read constantly, night and day.
I have covered an enormous amount of skeptical criticism, violent arguments, and I have read voraciously in the primary sources of Philo and Josephus which I deeply enjoy.
Having started with the skeptical critics, those who take their cue from the earliest skeptical New Testament scholars of the Enlightenment, I expected to discover that their arguments would be frighteningly strong, and that Christianity was, at heart, a kind of fraud. I’d have to end up compartmentalizing my mind with faith in one part of it, and truth in another.
And what would I write about my Jesus? I had no idea. But the prospects were interesting. Surely he was a liberal, married, had children, was a homosexual, and who knew what? But I must do my research before I wrote one word.
These skeptical scholars seemed so very sure of themselves. They built their books on certain assertions without even examining these assertions. How could they be wrong?
The Jewish scholars presented their case with such care. Certainly Jesus was simply and observant Jew or a Hasid who got crucified. End of story.
I read and I read and I read. Sometimes I thought I was walking through the valley of the shadow of Death, as I read. But I went on, ready to risk everything. I had to know who Jesus was—that is, if anyone knew, I had to know what that person knew.
Now, I couldn’t read the ancient languages, but as a scholar I can certainly follow the logic of an argument; I can check the footnotes, and the bibliographical references; I can go to the biblical text in English. I can check all the translations I have and I have every one of which I know from Wycliffe to Lamsa, including the New Annotated Oxford Bible and the old English King James which I love.
I have the old Catholic translation, and every literary translation I can find. I have offbeat translations scholars don’t mention, such as that by Barnstone and Schonfield. I acquired every single translation for the light it might shed on an obscure line.
What gradually came clear to me was that many of the skeptical arguments—arguments that insisted most of the Gospels were suspect, for instance, or written too late to be eyewitness accounts—lacked coherence. They were not elegant. Arguments about Jesus himself were full of conjecture. Some books were no more than assumptions piled upon assumptions. Absurd conclusions were reached on the basis of little or no data at all.
In sum, the whole case for the nondivine Jesus who stumbled into Jerusalem and somehow got crucified by nobody and had nothing to do with the founding of Christianity and would be horrified by it if hew knew about it—that the whole picture which has floated in the liberal circles I frequented as an atheist for thirty years—that case was not made. Not only was it not made. I discovered in this field some of the worst and most biased scholarship I’d ever read.
I saw almost no skeptical scholarship that was convincing, and the Gospels, shredded by critics, lost all intensity when reconstructed by various theorists. They were in no way compelling when treated as composites and records of later ”communities.”
I was unconvinced by the wild postulations of those who claimed to be children of the Enlightenment. And I had also sensed something else. Many of these scholars, scholars who apparently devoted their life to New Testament scholarship, disliked Jesus Christ. Some pitied him as a hopeless failure. Others sneered at him, and some felt an outright contempt. This came between the lines of the books. This emerged in the personality of the texts.
I’d never come across this kind of emotion in any other field of research, at least not to this extent. It was puzzling.
The people who go into Elizabethan studies don’t set out to prove that Queen Elizabeth I was a fool. They don’t personally dislike her. They don’t make snickering remarks about her, or spend their careers trying to pick apart her historical reputation.
They approach her in other ways. They don’t even apply this sort of dislike or suspicion or contempt to other Elizabethan figures. If they do, the person is usually not the focus of the study. Occasionally a scholar studies a villain, yes. But even then, the author generally ends up arguing for the good points of a villain or for his or her place in history, or for some mitigating circumstance, that redeems the study itself.
People studying disasters in history may be highly critical of the rulers or the milieu at the time, yes. But in general scholars don’t spend their lives in the company of historical figures whom they openly despise.
But there are New Testament scholars who detest and despise Jesus Christ. Of course, we all benefit from freedom in the academic community; we benefit from the enormous size of biblical studies today and the great range of contributions that are being made. I’m not arguing for censorship. But maybe I’m arguing for sensitivity—on the part of those who read these books. Maybe I’m arguing for a little wariness when it comes to the field in general. What looks like solid ground might not be solid ground at all.
Another point bothered me a great deal.
All these skeptics insisted that the Gospels were late documents, that the prophecies in them had been written after the Fall of Jerusalem. But the more I read about the Fall of Jerusalem, the more I couldn’t understand this.
The Fall of Jerusalem was horrific, and involved an enormous and cataclysmic war, a war that went on and on for years in Palestine, followed by other revolts and persecutions, and punitive laws. As I read about this in the pages of S.G.F. Brandon, and in Josephus, I found myself amazed by the details of this appalling disaster in which the greatest Temple of the ancient world was forever destroyed.
I had never truly confronted these events before, never tried to comprehend them. And now I found it absolutely impossible that the Gospel writers could not have included the Fall of the Temple in their work had they written after it as critics insist.
It simply didn’t and doesn’t make sense.
These Gospel writers were in a Judeo-Christian cult. That’s what Christianity was. And the core story of Judaism has to do with redemption from Egypt, and redemption from Babylon. And before redemption from Babylon there was a Fall of Jerusalem in which the Jews were taken to Babylon. And here we have this horrible war.
Would Christian writers not have written about it had they seen it? Would they not have seen in the Fall of Jerusalem some echo of the Babylonian conquest? Of course they would have. They were writing for Jews and Gentiles.
The way the skeptics put this issue aside, they simply assumed the Gospels were late documents because of these prophecies in the Gospels. This does not begin to convince.
Before I leave this question of the Jewish War and the Fall of the Temple, let me make this suggestion. When Jewish and Christian scholars begin to take this war seriously, when they begin to really study what happened during the terrible years of the siege of Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple, and the revolts that continued in Palestine right up through Bar Kokhba, when they focus upon the persecution of Christians in Palestine by Jews; upon the civil war in Rome in the ‘60s which Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., so well describes in his work Before Jerusalem Fell; as well as the persecution of Jews in the Diaspora during this period—in sum, when all of this dark era is brought into the light of examination—Bible studies will change.
Right now, scholars neglect or ignore the realities of this period. To some it seems a two-thousand-year-old embarrassment and I’m not sure I understand why.
But I am convinced that the key to understanding the Gospels is that they were written before all this ever happened. That’s why they were preserved without question though they contradicted one another. They came from a time that was, for later Christians, catastrophically lost forever.
As I continued my quest, I discovered a scholarship quite different from that of the skeptics—that of John A.T. Robinson, in The Priority of John. In reading his descriptions, which took seriously the words of the Gospel itself, I saw what was happening to Jesus in the text of John.
It was a turning point. I was able to enter the Fourth Gospel, and see Jesus alive and moving. And what eventually emerged for me from the Gospels was their unique coherence, their personalities—the inevitable stamp of individual authorship.
Of course John A.T. Robinson made the case for an early date for the Gospels far better that I ever could. He made it brilliantly in 1975, and he took to task the liberal scholars for their assumptions then in Redating the New Testament, but what he said is as true now as it was when he wrote those words.
After Robinson I made many great discoveries, among them Richard Bauckham who in The Gospels for All Christians soundly refutes the idea that isolated communities produced the Gospels and shows what is obvious, that they were written to be circulated and read by all.
The work of Martin Hengel is brilliant in clearing away assumptions, and his achievements are enormous, I continue to study him.
The scholar who has given me perhaps some of my most important insights and who continues to do so through his enormous output is N. T. Wright. N. T. Wright is one of the most brilliant writers I’ve ever read, and his generosity in embracing the skeptics and commenting on their arguments is an inspiration. His faith is immense, and his knowledge vast.
In his book The Resurrection of the Son of God, he answers solidly the question that has haunted me all my life. Christianity achieved what it did, according to N. T. Wright, because Jesus rose from the dead. It was the fact of the resurrection that sent the apostles out into the world with the force necessary to create Christianity. Nothing else would have done it but that.
Wright does a great deal more to put the entire question into historical perspective. How can I do justice to him here? I can only recommend him without reservation, and go on studying him.
Of course my quest is not over. There are thousands of pages of the above-mentioned scholars to be read and reread.
But I see now a great coherence to the life of Christ and the beginning of Christianity that eluded me before, and I see also the subtle transformation of the ancient world because of its economic stagnation and the assault upon it of the values of monotheism, Jewish values melded with Christian value, for which it was not perhaps prepared.
There are also theologians who must be studied, more of Teilhard de Chardin, and Rahner, and St. Augustine.
It was this. The challenge was to write about the Jesus of the Gospels, of course!
Anybody could write about a liberal Jesus, a married Jesus, a gay Jesus, a Jesus who was a rebel. The “Quest for the Historical Jesus” had become a joke because of all the many definitions it had ascribed to Jesus.
The true challenge was to take the Jesus of the Gospels, the Gospels which were becoming ever more coherent to me, the Gospels which appealed to me as elegant first-person witness, dictated to scribes no doubt, but definitely early, the Gospels produced before Jerusalem fell—to take the Jesus of the Gospels, and try to get inside him and imagine what he felt.
Then there were the legends—the Apocrypha—including the tantalizing tales in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas describing a boy Jesus who could strike a child dead, bring another to life, turn clay birds into living creatures, and perform other miracles. I’d stumbled on them very early in my research, in multiple editions, and never forgotten them. And neither had the world. They were fanciful, some of them humorous, extreme to be sure, but they had lived on into the Middle Ages, and beyond. I couldn’t get these legends out of my mind.
Ultimately I chose to embrace this material, to enclose it within the canonical framework as best I could. I felt there was a deep truth in it, and I wanted to preserve that truth as it spoke to me. Of course that is an assumption. But I made it. And perhaps in assuming that Jesus did manifest supernatural powers at an early age I am somehow being true to the declaration of the Council of Chalcedon, that Jesus was God and Man at all times.
I am certainly trying to be true to Paul when he said that Our Lord emptied himself for us, in that my character has emptied himself of his Divine awareness in order to suffer as a human being.
This is a book I offer to all Christian—to the fundamentalists, to the Roman Catholics, to the most liberal Christians in the hope that my embrace of more conservative doctrines will have some coherence for them in the here and now of the book. I offer it to scholars in the hope that they will perhaps enjoy seeing the evidence of the research that’s gone into it, and of course I offer it to those whom I so greatly admire who have been my teachers though I’ve never met them and probably never will.
I offer this book to those who know nothing of Jesus Christ in the hope that you will see him in these pages in some form. I offer this novel with love to my readers who’ve followed me through one strange turn after another in the hope that Jesus will be as real to you as any other character I’ve ever launched into the world we share.
After all, is Christ Our Lord not the ultimate supernatural hero, the ultimate outsider, the ultimate immortal of them all?
As for my son, this novel is dedicated to him. That says it all.
I returned to faith in Christ, and to the Roman Catholic Church on December 6, 1998. It was after a long struggle of many years during which I went from being a committed atheist, grieving for a lost faith which I thought was gone forever, to realizing that I not only believed in Jesus Christ with my whole heart, but that I felt an overwhelming love for Him, and wanted to be united with Him both in private and in public through attendance at church.
The process for me had been gradual and somewhat intellectual. I’d lost faith in atheism. It no longer made sense. I wanted to affirm the presence of God because I felt it. Yet I was tormented by a multitude of theological questions and social issues that I couldn’t resolve. No matter how strongly I believed in God I still considered myself a conscientious humanist.
How, I asked myself, could I express the love for God that I felt by becoming a member of a community of believers when I didn’t know what I thought about the literal truth of Adam or Eve or Original Sin?
How could I join with fellow believers who thought my gay son was going to Hell? How could I become connected with Christians who held that there was no evidence for Darwinian evolution, or that women should not have control over their own bodies? How could I affirm my belief in a faith that was itself so characterized by argument and strife?
Well, what happened to me on that Sunday that I returned to faith was this: I received a glimpse into what I can only call the Infinite Mercy of God. It worked something like this. I realized that none of my theological or social questions really made any difference. I didn’t have to know the answers to these questions precisely because God did.
He was the God who made the Universe in which I existed. That meant he had made the Big Bang, He had made DNA, He had made the Black Holes in space, and the wind and the rains and the individual snowflakes that fall from the sky. He had done all that. So surely He could do virtually anything and He could solve virtually everything.
And how could I possibly know what He knew? And why should I remain apart from Him because I could not grasp all that He could grasp? What came over me then was an infinite trust, trust in His power and His love, I didn’t have to worry about the ultimate fate of my good atheistic friends, gay or straight, because He knew all about them, and He was holding them in His hands.
I didn’t have to quake alone in terror at the thought of those who die untimely deaths from illness, or the countless millions destroyed in the horrors of war. He knew all about them. He had always been holding them in His hands.
He and only He knew the full story of every person who’d ever lived or would live; He and He alone knew what person was given what choice, what chance, what opportunity, what amount of time, to come to Him and by what path.
That I couldn’t possibly know all was as clear to me as my awareness that He did.
Now this was not totally understandable to me in words at that time. I couldn’t have explained it in this way then. But it is essentially what happened: faith became absolutely real to me; and its implications became real. I found myself in a realm in which the beauty I saw around me was intimately connected in every way with the justice, the wisdom, the mercy and the love of God.
Did this mean that I thought doctrine and principles didn’t matter? No. Did it mean I thought everything was relative? Certainly not. Did it mean I did not continue to ponder a multitude of ideas? God forbid. What it did mean was that I put myself in the hands of God entirely and that my faith would light the pages I read in the Book of Life from then on.
Now why did this happen to me? Why did this love and trust fill my heart at that particular moment in time? The honest answer is: I don’t know. Had I prayed for faith? Yes. Had I searched for it? Yes. But faith is a gift, and it was a gift I received on that day.
Over the next few years, my conviction and my awareness of God’s love deepened; and no matter what crisis or dilemma I confronted, that trust in the power of the Lord remained.
In the summer of 2002, as I’ve explained above, I consecrated my work to Christ, but I really didn’t make good on my promise to work only for Him until December of that year. From that time on, I have been committed to writing the life of Our Lord in fictional form.
At the time that I began this work, I had no idea that my life would be transformed by this task, that the anxiety I took for granted as part of life before 2002 would almost entirely disappear. In fact, had anyone told me this was going to happen, I wouldn’t have believed such a thing. But my life has been completely changed.
Now what happened in 2002 was this: I was praying, I was talking to the Lord, I was discussing my writing with Him, and what came over me was the awareness that if I believed in Him as completely as I said I did, I ought to write entirely for Him. Anything I could do ought to be for Him. I told Him so. I set out to put this into practice.
As I said, I didn’t succeed to full commitment until December of that year. But the day when I told the Lord I’d write for Him, and Him only, I now see as the most important single day of my entire life. Truly not the simplest things have been the same since. I am united in mind and body as never before. In fact it seems that every aspect of my life has been brought into a coherence that I’d never expected to see.
My early religious education, my long quest, my many experiences both dramatic and trivial, my losses, my developing writing skills, my research skills—all are united now in one single goal. There is a feeling in me at times that nothing, no matter how small, that I experienced has been lost. And of course I wonder if it isn’t this way with every human being; it’s just that most of us can’t see it most of the time.
There is much more I can say about my journey to conversion but I think this gives the emotional picture which is lacking above.
Finally, allow me to say this about the crafting of a novel about Our Lord.
As Christians, I feel most of us in the creative community must seek to be more than scribes. If Diarmaid MacColloch is right in his immense history, The Reformation, we had plenty of Christian scribes on the eve of that enormous and painful upheaval.
But it was the printing press that enabled the great thinkers of that time, both Reformer and Catholic, to transform our “assumptions about knowledge and originality of thought.” I suggest now that we must seize the revolutionary media of our age in the way that those earlier Christian and Catholics seized the printed book. We must truly use the realistic novel, the television drama, and the motion picture to tell the Christian story anew.
It is our obligation to tell that story over and over and to use the best means that we have.
In that spirit this novel was written—with the hope of exploring and celebrating the mystery of the Hypostatic Union as well as the mystery of the Incarnation—in a wholly fresh way.
But we, O Lord, behold we are Thy little flock; possess us as Thine, stretch thy wings over us, and let us fly under them. Be thou our glory.
-St. Augustine
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July 12, 2006
Go here to learn more about Anne’s book “Christ The Lord Out Of Egypt”
Anne Rice recommends the following books and scholarly works on the question of Jesus:
On the Historical Jesus and the Gospels:
David Alan Black’s simple and straightforward Why Four Gospels
Jean Carmignac’s The Birth of the Synoptic Gospels
The First Edition of the New Testament by David Trobisch
Craig S. Keener’s truly magnificent A Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew
Redating Matthew, Mark and Luke by John Wenham
I’m also profoundly grateful for the writings of Fr. Benedict Groeschel CFR, J. Augustine Di Noia OP, Gerald O’Collins SJ, and the works of the great theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar
Larry Hurtado’s Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity
Craig L. Blomberg’s The Historical Reliability of John’s Gospel
On apocryphal writings and artistic representations of Jesus in the early church:
The Apocryphal Jesus: Legends of the Early Church by J. K. Elliot
Art & the Christian Apocrypha by David R. Cartlidge and J. Keith Elliot
The Apocryphal Gospels of Mary in Anglo-Saxon England by Mary Clayton
The Cambridge Companion to Medieval English Theatre
Judgment to Passion: Devotion to Christ and the Virgin Mary 800-1200 by Rachel Fulton
The Golden Legend, published as Legenda Sanctorum in 1260
1-Page Summary: What We Know About Jesus and the Resurrection
Jun Mahusay,
Your explanations are to the point and logically sound. God bless you.
Thanks for your kindness, Ifey. My only hope is that I could be of some help. God bless you too.
Hi Jun,
I did not say that the concept of virgin birth is a scientifically proven fact. I was saying that the belief could have come into Christianity from ancient Greek and Roman mythology of virgin birth. This belief existed in various forms in early Christianity but was formalized by the Nicaean Synod by which most Christians would swear. I also said that a wrong translation of the original Hebrew word could have been responsible for the concept gaining ground in Christianity.For virgin and fair maiden Hebrew language of old seems to have similar words. No science involved in that. In my view the rigidity with which faith is forced to be practiced is at the bottom of many religious issues including the dilemma of Ann Rice.
George Cherian
George,
You are right on the button. Finally there is someone who is able to see beyond The brainwashing!
I have tried to point out that it was only at the Nicaean Synod, wherein many bishops were even murdered, that Divinity was bestowed upon Jesus to make him more “mysterious”. For up until then, he was a man even to his disciples.
What I truly want is for our bloggers to realize that the Bible is a compendium of stories assembled by man and NOT by the Hand of God!
Can you help?
Bert, Yes, the Bible was written by men, BUT, it was Divinely Inspired, by Almighty God, as there IS* no other ancient document that even comes remotely close to the Bible, God’s Word, in its historic veracity, truthfulness, and exact precision, re its declarations and prophetic statements, ALL* of which have come to pass, confirmed by history. Only the Hand of Almighty God, its very author could accomplish this.
Secondly, Atheism, is both philosophically and logically untenable, as one would have to be God, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, to declare there is no God.
The scientific PROOF, for the Creation of the Universe, and ALL life forms rest squarely on the Evidence from the Fossil Record, the point IS* that no matter how much fancy, pseudo-scientific jargon is brought by the Evolutionary camp, there ARE* some very simple scientific FACTS* that point to, in fact, are directly confirmative of Creation, as specifically outlined in the Genesis account narrative of the Bible, God’s divinly Inspired Word, that IS* that “So God Created great see creatures and EVERY living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their KIND (species) and every winged bird according to its KIND (Species)…” (Gen 1: 21, Emphasis added) (See also vv. 24,25)
The FACT remains, scientifically, from the FOSSIL record, that Creation, which IS* emphatically supported thousands of years AFTER* the FACT* by literally MILLIONS of FOSSIL finds, all of which, each and every time they are discovered, no matter where on earth, or in the sea, each and every time, regardless the the species* they ALL appear ‘ABRUPTLY’ that IS* fully and completely FORMED, exactly AS* they were Created in the first place, by Almighty God.
Yes, I am fully aware of all the fancy, pseudo-scientific jargon, that Evolutionists create, invent, such as ‘punctuated equilibrium’ deviously for their own agenda, to keep Almighty God, our Creator out of, their Atheist mind-set.
No matter how many of these false scientific ‘theories’ they come up with, the plain, simple FACTS* of MILLIONS of Fossils, repeatedly speak, in their eloquent SILENCE, loudly, that WE* were ALL Created, by Almighty God, that’s why, we ALL appear, FULLY FORMED, no ‘transitional’ fossils will ever be found, as WE did NOT* ‘Evolve’ we were Created.
And the FACTS, re Creation, are so from:
The Fossil Record – From Microorganisms to Fish.
The Fossil Record – From Fish to Reptile
The Fossil Record – The Origins of Mammals. And,
The Origins of Man.
Because, ‘EVOLUTION” the fossils, STILL say NO!” They ALL appear ABRUPTLY, each and every time, as they were Created, Period!
Thank you for your honesty, George.
Let me just explain to you the relationship between Faith and Conciliar definitions.
Faith in its strict sense is the acceptance of a proposition as true on the strength of the credibility of the one proposing it.
Christian Faith is the acceptance of certain propositions as true on the credibility of the Apostles, who in turn derive their credibility from Jesus Christ who derives his credibility from being God. Let me admit that that’s an oversimplified statement. We can try to explore that further in another post.That oversimplification will surely give occasion to many objections and questions.
Put in another way, God revealed something to man by becoming a man. He revealed something to man about God, man himself and his destiny.
This truth is transmitted from generation to generation either by word or in writing. This is a process called tradition, something that is much maligned and misunderstood because of a misunderstanding of Scriptures.
Through the ages something that was not originally part of the teachings of Jesus Christ can get attached to the tradition and confuse the original teachings. This gives occasion for a clear and forceful definition such as a dogma which aims to clear away all doubts and confusion about what Christ really taught. This is what a papal definition or a Conciliar definition is supposed to do.
So the fact that a papal definition or a conciliar definition was made at a certain point in time does not mean that what was proposed for belief had not been held in belief by the Christians of prior times. On the contrary, as I have said earlier, the definition is being made so that what has always been believed will no longer be confused with other ideas.
Of course, it is very possible for any Catholic or Christian not to accept the definition but then it will be clear to him that his faith is not Catholic or in earlier times, not Christian.
So the fact that the virgin birth, the divinity of Christ, the immaculate conception, the Trinity were defined as dogmas of faith at some point in time does not mean that Christians of earlier times did not believe them.
Everything that I have said does not constitute a justification for believing them. I have only explained something to you so that you would understand where Christians are coming from.
Hi Ifey, Thanks for reading my blog and making a comment. I am to confirm that I am a scientist and that too a geologist. Ten thousand (10000)years is I must confess a range of errors of estimate that is plus or minus the number of 4.5 billion (4500 000 000 000). I know that believers cannot accept this argument
My own feeling is that everything that humans have put their hands on including the writing of the early bible based as it is on Jewish holy books are also subject to human errors just as we scientists are constantly plagued by our own mistakes and indeed shortcomings. But as a matter of general rule true scientists tend to accept their errors and mistakes and try to go forward. Keeping an open mind about everything is the first lesson that a scientist is taught and I have no problem accepting that there may be errors in 4.5 billion years and the error margin of plus minus 10000 years!Thanks any way.
George Cherian
Thanks George,
But have you ever thought that there is no certain historical controls for the datings beyond 6,000 BC except mathematical assumption and extrapolations. Who really says a partially decayed radioactive element cannot be created that way? Do see what I mean? If so then the whole dating is based on FAITH just as the Revelation has to do with faith. You have in what you think is credible. Scientific opinions, hypotheses, observations, theories and formulas. I’m I right?
It is therefore not not only Christians who hold to their views by Faith (much of which has historical and experiential and scientific confirmation) but Scientists too especially is matters of distant past and future.
Thanks for your understanding. God bless you real good.
It is not fair then to single out Our Faith as doing what the whole human race does and lives on – Faith in or about one thing or the other.
George,
Please note this correction in the first paragraph
You have FAITH in what you think is credible INCLUDING Scientific opinions, hypotheses, observations, theories and formulas. AM I right?
The debate in these comments misses a key point. Salvation from what? Destruction? We will all die alike, a Christian does not avoid physical destruction. So I know you will then respond by declaring it is Spiritual. Well the only Salvation that can be Spiritual is one of truth versus illusion. Either you are in truth (will set you free), or you are in illusion (illusion is not true). You can clearly see that in reality there is only truth, for illusion is merely an untrue belief. Salvation therefore is not a choice A or B, it is merely awaking from illusions to the reality that exists for all of us. The word sin is simply error, or believing a lie, which is NOT TRUE. Christians and religions put a truth to the false and view the universe as good versus evil. This viewpoint skews the reality that there is only truth, and lies. There is only good – and when in a state of confusion and illusion, that goodness cannot be experienced to it’s fullest. This is why the message is more important than the messenger, Jesus was not a magical formula for the lucky and obedient, he was the messenger of the truth that will set you free, and that is the Salvation this is true. The reason the debate is ongoing is because logic and reason don’t mesh with a cosmic game of good versus evil and chosen one’s versus infidels. Logic and reason fit perfectly with the Salvation that Jesus offered which was the truth that eliminates illusion, and once illusion is exposed it is gone forever, and once in truth, we then can easily and naturally produce the fruits of the Spirit, peace, love, joy etc.. It is illusion (religious and other) that confuses, irritates, causes conflict, war and this entire debate. Jesus was killed by a religious/political system that was in illusion – His message carries on today, but sadly has been misinterpreted by religion once again, and used to justify war and conquest. In illusion we have dreams of devils and hell, evil and fear, but when the illusion is stripped away we see that the LOVE of God encompasses ALL, and there is nothing to fear for you or me – this is the message of Good News, not the game of roulette that modern Christianity purports. What Good News is that? That the vast majority of all humans that ever existed through no real fault of their own (brainwashed from birth) are ending in a physical burning tortuous hell? No, this cannot be true, for that would mean God is sadistic considering He created, had the foreknowledge to know how it would turn out, and then let the plan commence. Illusions, all illusions, preventing the perfect unifying Peace of God!
Hi David. Thanks for your comments.
I would have loved to engage you. I’m sure that would be stimulating and rewarding in terms of new insights but the lack of specificity of your comments and your failure to mention the basis of your assertions is preventing me from doing so.
Could you be more specific as to the meaning of your assertions? God bless you.
Hi David.
I am going to try a piecemeal approach and see how it will go.
“The debate in these comments misses a key point. Salvation from what? Destruction? We will all die alike, a Christian does not avoid physical destruction.”
It may seem that way but you also missed a point.
When paper burns, it ceases to be paper and turns into charcoal. We say that the paper is annihilated. In Greek philosophy, paper is corrupted while charcoal is generated. One type of substance disappears and a different one emerges.
When the eye ceases to be able to see, it’s still an eye but we can say that the eye has been destroyed. The eye is still there and yet we can also say that the eye is no longer there and has turned into something else. There is something in the structure of the eye which has changed and has altered its essence and turned it into something else that still seems like an eye.
When the operating system of a computer gets corrupted, there is something in it that changes and turns it into something else that we still call the operating system but which we erase by reformatting the hard drive. The operating system has been destroyed because it has been corrupted. There is something in its structure that has changed.
Part of what man is is being a creature of God. He is a creature of God from the first moment of his existence. And a consequence of that is the obedience that is due to God. When man refuses to acknowledge this reality and to act accordingly there is something about the structure of his existence (the Creator-creature relationship) that is destroyed and changes him. We can say that the man that he should be has been corrupted and a new one is generated. The original man has been annihilated and a new one has emerged. God said to Adam and Eve that the moment they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree they would die. That is the rendering in the Bible I use. I am not familiar with the Hebrew rendering. But dying with man means destruction and in the sense I have explained above, man is truly destroyed by sin. And it is from this destruction that man is saved by Jesus Christ, primarily (I believe).
Some theologians also believe that God granted Adam and Eve the preternatural gift of not dying which, however, they lost after the fall. This preternatural gift of not dying was supposed to be transmitted to all succeeding generations had they not sinned. The restoration of these preternatural gifts is not part of the salvation effected by Christ in accordance with your claim. But note that nobody is claiming that here. You have merely mistakenly attributed that to one of us.
“Well the only Salvation that can be Spiritual is one of truth versus illusion. Either you are in truth (will set you free), or you are in illusion (illusion is not true). You can clearly see that in reality there is only truth, for illusion is merely an untrue belief. Salvation therefore is not a choice A or B, it is merely awaking from illusions to the reality that exists for all of us.”
Note that I said in an earlier related post, “When man refuses to acknowledge this reality and to act accordingly there is something about the structure of his existence (the Creator-creature relationship) that is destroyed and changes him.”
In a way, I was saying that at the root of damnation/destruction is blindness to the truth like what you are saying.
Adam and Eve failed to obey God’s command because instead of trusting in the words of God about the consequence of sin which is death, they chose to trust in the words of the serpent which said, “ You will be like God.” Adam and Eve did not obey God because they did not trust him enough so they failed to see the truth in his words.
Reality is, man is destroyed by fire. If a child will ignore the warning of his parents about not going near the fire lest he dies because he does not perceive the truth in their words, he will surely die. Ignorance or blindness to the truth can have destructive consequences. So I agree with you partly. It’s just that you stopped at ignorance and did not acknowledge that ignorance of the truth can lead to destruction/death.
“That the vast majority of all humans that ever existed through no real fault of their own (brainwashed from birth) are ending in a physical burning tortuous hell? No, this cannot be true, for that would mean God is sadistic considering He created, had the foreknowledge to know how it would turn out, and then let the plan commence. Illusions, all illusions, preventing the perfect unifying Peace of God.”
I tend to believe that damnation is not what it is usually portrayed to us. I believe that when Scriptures makes references to other-wordly realities, that it does so using symbolisms because the human language has no words for those other-wordly realities and so it would be a folly to take Scriptures literally in this respect.
Fires of hell, as far as I’m concerned is a figure of speech. Fire is for purification. It is also for annihilation.
Damnation/Judgement are big words for ordinary words like consequences of our choices.
Using again the example I have used, when a child does not heed the warning of his parents about not getting too close to the fire, the consequence and hence judgement on his ignoring (ignorance) of the warning of his parents is his death which tells him he was wrong.
Judgement is a revelation on the truth about the choices we make and it usually comes in the form of consequences which teach us a lesson.
Do our actions and choices have consequences ? Yes, they do. Here in this life and beyond.
If our choice is to totally reject God and to have nothing to do with him, with the clarity of an angel’s intellect and the permanence of his will, the consequence will be an eternity without God. Recall my discussion about destruction and death. Man without God is man destroyed, man who is not what he is supposed to be in the first place. And that for eternity. Forever destroyed with no hope of repair. Could that be what eternal fire symbolizes? Eternal fire. Eternal destruction. Eternally without God as a consequence of our choice.
But let us recall the prayer of Jesus on the cross: Forgive them Father for they know not what they do.I agree with you that for the most part our choices are not guided by a crystal clear intellect and so there is much room for God’s mercy. Is hell actually empty? That is a distinct possibility but I don’t really know.
Jun Mahusay
It is interesting that you see man’s sinful nature as not being their fault. What about the sin of rejecting the simple Gospel message: is it their fault?
Joh 3:16-20 KJV2000
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(18) He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
(20) For everyone that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
It is interesting that you see the terminator-God who is an annihilator as humainitarian while the tormentor-God who is a retributor as sadistic.
Is there really any difference between the two in the eternal realm of spirits?
How is annihilation not retributive?
Is it your imagined “duration” in a timeless realm that determines sadism?
In the eternal realm beyond time annihilation/termination has no advantage over torment; besides spirit beings cannot be terminated or annihilated. To destroy or perish is to be subjected to degenerate regrettable state.
Hi Ifey.
I will not comment on your comments. I see that they don’t apply to me. You have probably misunderstood me. If you wish, you can try pointing out a specific comment fo mine, make your comment on it and I will comment back. But as it is now, I can’t even tell what you’re commenting on and where we disagree.
Hi again, Ifey.
It is important that you make sure that the meaning you read into my comments is really the meaning intended by me. Otherwise, we will be barking at two different trees while believing that we are barking at each other.
I suggest that you cut and paste a specific comment of mine that you wish to comment on. Write your understanding of my comments and your reaction under it. Then I will comment back.
Jun Mahusay,
I’m sorry I was talking to the matter you are answering not to you please. It’s a mixup because what I’m saying does not disagree but actually agrees with you.
Pardon my mixup please.
The sign of Jonah is all that we will be given. Be sure: to believe in Yeshua HaMasshiach(Jesus the Messiah), we will have to believe in a God who does not work through the ‘normal’ ways. Allmighty God understands the wonderful,normal people He created. Instead of waiting for God to come around to your way of understanding,may you all be blessed to come around to loving the way of our Father.
Jun ,
Thanks for the comments. You have explained the basis of christian faith very well. All that i was trying to express in my earlier post was the influences that had come into Christianity from Roman and Greek Legends where virgin birth was assigned to all important persons. Apparently the ancient Persians also believed in virgin birth for their savior. If Jesus is accepted as savior and son of god then virgin birth need not be an issue. God’s son can be born any way acceptable to God including virgin birth. My contention is that this has become a badge of faith for all the wrong reasons. Legends from Roman Imperial ideas being one of them.
George
Hi George.
You’re right. Devoid of any faith in the God who reveals himself, there’s no other way of interpreting the coincidences and intersections of non-Christian religions and Christianity than this: one culture assimilating another culture.
Without Christ, the God who became man to reveal himself, as the interpretative key of the observed similarities between religions, we are left with the ideas of sociology and anthropology as the interpretative key.
But what if there’s a God who created everything and he makes himself known and his plans in various ways: in the cosmos, in nature, in human nature, in the various cultures in human history, and through direct revelation?
The coincidences and intersections can be viewed as God’s preparation for his direct revelation.
In Education, we learn that the preparedness of the learner is the key to learning.
In theology, inculturation (adapting the expression of Christian beliefs to the culture being evangelized) has become a norm for effective evangelization.
This way, the worship of the sun in pagan religions can be viewed as the precursor of the worship of the true Sun (and true Son), Jesus Christ, the Light of the World. The resurrection of Jesus on a Sunday provided the basis for Christian worship on Sundays and the imagery is perfect. Jesus Christ, the true Sun and light of the world, emerges from darkness (death) to spread his light on a day the pagans called the day of the sun.
Jesus was born in the city of Bethlehem in a manger. Bethlehem is literally “house of bread” in Hebrew. ‘Manger’ has French roots which means “to eat.” Jesus claimed to be the bread that came down from heaven and told his disciples to eat his flesh.
Jesus was born of a virgin and you have confirmed that the notion of virgin birth is found in other cultures/civilizations.
Osiris, an Egyptian god, was raised back to life by Isis after being killed by his brother. Jesus Christ was brought back to life after being killed by his brothers.
Moses was the savior and lawgiver of the Israelites, David was their king and Elisha was their prophet. Jesus is savior, king and prophet to Christians.
In the New Testament, Paul declared Jesus to be the new Adam (Old Testament).
The list is long. Without Christian faith, it is just the phenomenon of assimilation, usually observed by sociologists and anthropologists in the course of their work. Otherwise, it is possible to view God as the dutiful teacher, employing modern teaching concepts long before they were discovered man.
George, thanks for having this exchange with me.
I don’t have a question but rather offer some little known but quite worthwhile info relative the topics of religion and faith. I believe that God sent his son Jesus to our world as a revelation that He existed and that he loved us as His children. I also believe that in the early 1900’s God sent mankind additional revelations, the exposure to which has since unleashed the secrets of the Universe(s) to many who have read their compilation in The Urantia Book, published in 1955. Never heard of it? Most haven’t. Read what Wikipedia has to say about this book, how these revelations were presented to humanity and how they were ultimately captured in print and by whom. This should be enough info for you to be inclined to dismiss its authenticity. All I can strongly recommend is that you not allow this to happen. Read some of it online and you will soon come to see that what it conveys does not come from the mind of man. Example…It tells of the entire life of Jesus; from his birth until the time of his execution, as recorded by those who were sent here and present. In many ways your exposure to this book’s contents will change your life. It’ll correcty alter your whole way of viewing how our universe and world came to be, how you came to be on it and where your destiny truly lies beyond your brief visit here. Trust me when I state to you that we are by no means alone! I get chills just typing these words. Bon Voyage & God Bless.
Hello there George. Our Mars rover Curiosity, will soon prove for all to finally know what our governmant has know ever since Roswell, if not before. That being, we are by no means alone. If you are truly a scientist, please thumb thru The Urantia Book for science related sections of interest. You will soon come to see that the big bang theory was kinda neat but totally and completely wrong. Google TUB Timeline, that starts some 950 billion when approval for the creation of our Universe was granted. Keep an open mind and you will be sharing this revelation with your fellow scientists, family and freinds. May God bless and keep safe our troubled world
Arnold, this “The Urantia Book” is just another of numerous other such like, so-called extra Biblical ‘revelations’ all claiming to be the ultimate ‘truth’ from God, given through some celestial ‘being(s)’ using some human being on earth, through which this ‘mediumistic’ LIE, is conveyed.
It is interesting to note carefully, that in this book, like all other spiritual ‘deceptions’ that some degree of ‘truth’ that lines up to some extent with Almighty God’s divinely inspired Word* the Bible* is always presented up front, as NO LIE* can gain any momentum, unless it first gets a ‘piggyback’ ride on some truth, Satan and his ‘Demonic’ hosts, masquerade in this manner, as NO LIE* is more deadly or dangerous, than when it IS* couched, veneered, presented and then convoluted in some degree of ‘truth’ and this ‘book’ is just another classic example and manifestation of such utter ‘Demonically’ lies.
The same kind of Demonic counterfiet, is found in Mormonism, Christian Science, Ellen G. White of the SDA, et al cults.
All of the cardinal, CORE doctrines of Almighty God’s divinly inspired, self-authenticating WORD* the Bible, are denied in this book, which is entirely consistent with such utterly FALSE revelation, as NO LIE* is of the TRUTH*.
Sorry, Arnold, you like multitudes of others, have being terribly deceived by this spurious, false, demonic type of revelation.
Hey Carlos,
I’ve just now stumbled across your post. Your position tells me that you’ve not read this book. I’ve only thusfar scratched it’s surface, but can clearly see that its revelation to mankind is devine in nature and content. Regards,
Until you realize that there is no God sitting up in the sky looking down on us and deciding to punish or reward us you will not be able to apply logic to anything anyone has to say about your mythical god.
Jesus, if he was real, was a man born of woman. He was not divine, he was not the son of god and he possessed no magical powers until the Roman Catholic Church for its own selfish reasons bestowed such powers on him.
I will be among the first to admit that there is a lot about our world that we do not understand. However, blind faith and belief in a mythical Holy Family is not the way to go. I think if we can focus and look for answers we may be able to understand more about our world which is apparently more than 300 million years old as compared to the stories told in a book that is just 2000 years old.
Why would a benevolent god reward the millions of truly evil men and women at the expense of the millions of poor starving and hopeless humans around the world?
Just think about it!
Bert, You do not have a clue about what you are saying.
Your ‘ignorance’ re the historicity, and veracity, of the Judeo/Christian worldview, is amazing, as our ‘faith’ is not some blind faith, not at all, it IS* founded on historic, logical, evidence, which if you’d take the time to invistigate, would blow your mind, as ‘Reason’ that is the intellectual ability to think, critically, objectively, rationally, IS* necessary for ‘revelation’ i.e., evidence, facts, to be coherent.
Bert, you have obviously taken up the mistaken epistemological view, that if one can object, one may then easily dismiss. This is self-referentially in-coherent selective hyperskepticism. Before one justifiably claims to know ‘A’ or to know that not -A, alike, one has to the same duty of warrant. For not-A is just as much a commitment as ‘A’ and, for things that are really important, “I don’t know, so I dismiss” is even less defensible. There are things that one knows, or SHOULD know!
Facts becomes credible facts, when there are warranted by relevant and sufficient evidence.
Truth by definition, IS* absolute* man does not create truth, he discovers truth. Absolute truth, comes from our Almighty Creator, God, who has revealed Himself, not only in natural revelation, the awesome created Order of things, the Universe, but, IN* specific, divinely Inspired revelation, as contained in His Word* the Bible, and, the over 6,000 prophetic statements/declarations, in the Bible, ALL with the exception of a remaing few, have come to past, exactly as HE* said it would.
You have NO idea what you are ignorantly denying, and are obviously blinded to!
Bert you are just bereft of capacity for spiritualities. But highly prone to gulp falsehood and concocted history. Your authorities are fabrications.Please redo your thinking.
You don’t seem to be attracted to facts or the truth but tend to have predilection to believe lies, especially if they malign God, the Bible and the Church.
Dear Burt Pursoo,
Regarding your post of 23.07.2011 I wish to offer the following since there is a reference to the earth as being 300 years old. It is not . Correctly we scientists believe
that the earth as we know it today is around 4.5 Billion (4.5 00 000 000)years old.It is one of the planets in a system called the solar system which is a part of a large entity called a galaxy. Our galaxy in which the solar system is an insignificant part is called the Milky Way and in case its age is be guessed, it is in the region of 13.5 Billion years and is the result of a phenomenon which is getting to be better understood called the Big Bang. According to this theory the Universe in which Milky Way is an insignificant component is constantly moving outwards at an inconceivable speed started with a big bang the vestiges of which can be observed and measured by sophisticated optical and digital instruments mounted on many telescopes some on earth itself and others like the Hubble placed on a space platform.
Our galaxy the Milky Way has many solar like systems containing many planets and stars counted in millions and there are innumerable galaxies also counted presently in the millions that we are unable to see or comprehend within the limited perspective available to us. Presently we think that life forms may be present in some of the planets within the Milky Way itself and efforts are on to contact them.
Mind you, I am in no way challenging any believes or systems of believes religious or otherwise. It is the view of most scientists, and I happen to be one of them.
Thanks
George Cherian
“There is no animosity whatever in my writings.”
That’s right. But you cannot deny that there is much contempt or a posture of intellectual superiority expressed in condescending remarks that prove nothing.
You talk glibly about seeking the truth. I ask again the truth about what?
The truth about why there is something instead of nothing for instance.
If you think you can find the truth in a book of stories compiled by man be it the Bible, the Qu’oran, the Torah or the Uranthia Book then you have yet to understand the true meaning of the very word “truth”.
And what is “truth” according to you?
“Anyway, good luck in your search for the truth about whatever it is you hope to find, bearing in mind that there is not one but many truths out there.”
You would have been more helpful if you had been clearer. If we don’t know your meaning of ‘truth’, how can we understand or appreciate the wisdom of “there is not one but many truths out there?”
rice must read the quran spacialy al-Baqrah and mariam before you frame your opinion about Jesus as God because created can not be a creater , there is no any evidece in bible or other littrature othere then this presamption ,that man can curfie the God and God is no so week humanity can curife him.
2-That God is a creater. How can creater be a sun of his own created woman (mother of Jesus)? please keep thease in mind and answer it with logic.
Dear Bert Pursoo,
From your contributions, you sound so loudly wrong in your analysis of issues both historically and philosophically. You need humble self examination more than you derogatorily accuse, fault and blame everybody for everything – with all your abysmal errors of history, reality and reason.
Please kindly bear with me to dare say that you sound so skew minded to me as Cain was, that for every error you make with your computer, you blame the manufacturer not yourself who is the manipulator/user. For every car crash, you blame the maker not the driver. Every gunshot you blame the gun-maker not the gun-shooter. The ancient faulty spirit of Cain has swooned God-blamers like you.
Or are you one of those hardened criminals that blame their government for their crimes and refuse to accept responsibility and repent?
You also arrogate to yourself the power of judging God to be blameable as wrong doer for anything you do not make any good sense of. Should your car combustion cylinder, piston and rings blame you, Toyota or GM as wrong doers for the intense heat they experience in order for the car to move?
Jud 1:10-1a
(10) But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
(11) Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, …
God is neither answerable to you nor responsible for your acts; that is why you are answerable to God in judgment. THANK GOD, BY HIS GRACE AND INESTIMABLE LOVE HE HAS MADE PROVISION FOR OUR PROPITIATION IN CHRIST: IF WE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN HIM. Though I suspect you would hate the idea of any authority over your life or any judge over your choices, even if that authority is your Creator. To make sense of evil in this world see this link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/16048699/THE-CHALLENGES-OF-EVIL-AND-THE-IMPERFECT-WORLD
Strange enough, though you judge and blame God, you still tow the line of the evil course of this world. For instance you would not accept to be blamed or judged as wrong for homosexuality or extra-marital sexual immorality which God has judged as wrong. This is obvious anti-God rebellion and demonic disobedience. Some of your likes would dare to loath the idea of God – “Theostugeism” (Rom 1:30) or even deny the existence of God – Atheism.
Eph 2:1-8
(1) In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins.
(2) At that time you followed the world’s evil way; you obeyed the ruler of the spiritual powers in space, the spirit who now controls the people who disobey God.
(3) Actually all of us were like them and lived according to our natural desires, doing whatever suited the wishes of our own bodies and minds. In our natural condition we, like everyone else, were destined to suffer God’s anger.
(4) But God’s mercy is so abundant, and his love for us is so great,
(5) that while we were spiritually dead in our disobedience he brought us to life with Christ. It is by God’s grace that you have been saved.
(6) In our union with Christ Jesus he raised us up with him to rule with him in the heavenly world.
(7) He did this to demonstrate for all time to come the extraordinary greatness of his grace in the love he showed us in Christ Jesus.
(8) For it is by God’s grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God’s gift, so that no one can boast about it.
May God help you to accept His grace in Christ and be submisive to His authority for your own good.
God be with you.
I see ‘God’ as being Universal Consciousness/Universal Self or
Universal ‘I’. And, as I see it, we Evolve UP through numerous levels of Consciousness until we are Complete (Whole). When this happens, then we become ONE with Universal Self, Or, put simply, the Universal ‘I’. Which also ‘I’.
THE FIRST 3 basic levels of human consciousness are: ‘I AM ME’. They’re also the ‘hidden’ meaning of the words,(The 3 IN 1).
Meaning: I+I+I placed one above the other.(But, just as straight lines), and all being ‘the self’ or ‘I’.
So, having said this, my question is: That as ‘God’ created
evolution and man created religion, and Jews have only been around for a few thousand years, and, as they themselves would agree, ‘they are a race apart’, why would God choose a Jew to be ‘the Saviour’ of the human race? For, no one can evolve to become a Jew. Yet, a Jew can evolve to become ‘ME’
(The same can be said for other religions also. But, we are not generalising here).
I will not accept the answer – ‘that we are not supposed to question ‘God’s decisions’. We have evolved to be an ‘Intelligent’ species. Therefore, we should use this intelligence – to question EVERYTHING.
Barbara
I must question why you wish to replace a beautiful, consistent and believable account such as is in the Bible with another one of these “Well, I think’… theories. Trust me I created a dozen or so of them. Its all pie in the sky. The only possible hope humanity has is if there is a God and if Jusus is God and if He came to earth to save us and rose from the dead because if none of this is true we have no hope and no ‘possible scenario’will change that.
Ps what is wrong about God choosing the Jews to be the choosen people or Jesus being a Jew?
Robert
http://www.us-entrepreneurs.com
Subject: The Urantia Book. Hello everyone. May I respectfully suggest that, if possible, you each put you belief system on temporary hold while you peruse this text for a topic of interest. Dive in and please do not allow your mind to slam shut too soon. Buckle your seatbelt and continue on to receive what has been referred to as our Creator’s sweeping revelation to mankind. Just as He once sent his Son to elevate our conscience, so too has He arranged for this message of enlightenment. Check out Wekipedia for what they have to say about the book, including how it came into being; published in 1955. Google TUB timeline, which starts with the authorization for our Universe creation some 950 billion years ago. If there are any scientists out there you’ll note it reveals information we have not yet come to understand; and much has been proven true since its publishing. May those of you who have their interest ignited, enjoy and be enlightened. Someone was first to say that “truth is stranger than fiction” and my heart tells me this book epitomizes this phrase. Share it with others if you feel the Truth is contained therein. May God bless and keep safe our troubled world. Best regards, ASE
I was born in a Christian family.
Being brought up as a Christian I started studying bible believing Jesus is the Christ and son of God. I happened to believe that Jews lost their kingdom and they were scattered all over the world and was subjected to indescribable sufferings and persecutions because they rejected Jesus and crucified him. When I studied Bible and Jewish history I found they are not a lot to be hated and to be ignored. The hatred, reproach, persecutions, killings and sufferings they met in this world annoyed my mind very much.
Being a Christian I believed that If Jews can accept Jesus as Christ and son of God they can overcome all their problems and find out everlasting peace in their life. I intended to write a book to convince them undoubtedly that Jesus is the Christ and son of God. With this intention in mind I again began to study Bible and history to collect materials for my book. I spent whole my life for this venture, I can say about 45 years I spent to study Bible and history. .
To my great astonishment and against to all my expectations and wishes I found Christian Religion is not built upon the teachings of Jesus. In fact Jesus never claimed he is the messiah or son of god. Christian belief and preaching from A to Z is wrong. Christian religion is the culmination of wrong interpretation of Bible. Hence I found A new and different interpretation is necessary to reveal the hidden truth in the New Testament. Why?
St.Paul, known as the master builder of Christianity says “We know in part and we prophecy in part” (1.Cori.13:9) If knowledge of Paul and other apostles are not full and perfect, how can their interpretation or teaching be perfect? Paul continues, “But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away” (13:10) It is evident from the words of Paul that he expects that which is perfect will come. So He advises us, “ Leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith towards God, of the doctrine of baptisms, or laying on hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.” (Hebr.6: 1-2) Do Christians have any thing new to say other than what Paul mentions as the elementary principles of Christ?
Paul is certain that the things they taught the Christians are not perfect. That is why Paul says, “I could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it.”(Cori.3:1,2) Paul said it at the childhood of Christianity. 2000 years have passed and still Christians are drinking the milk provided by Paul. Are not the Christians now able to take solid food?
Paul says, “ When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” (Cori.13:11) Paul wants the Christian religion to do away with childish things when it will attain maturity. Can any one always remain a child? Has not Christian religion grown up enough to understand the hidden truth in New Testament? A new and different interpretation is necessary to reveal the hidden truth in the New Testament..
Jesus said “ Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword “. (Mt.10:34) Main function of Messiah is to bring peace, but stating I have come to bring a sword Jesus clearly says he is not the messiah. But What the world think about Jesus ? Even the persons who do not believe Jesus is Christ and son of God think that Jesus was the prince of peace. And the world celebrates the birth day of Jesus exchanging wishes for peace. It is interesting we don’t know the exact date of birth of Jesus. Do you think that Jesus was a liar to tell “I did not come to bring peace but a sword”?
Jesus Said “ I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
Mt. 15:24. Jesus didn’t went out side of Israel for preaching, not only that He instructed his followers “ Do not go into the way of the Gentiles and do not enter a city of Gentiles , but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel “. But what the world think about Jesus ? Christians all over the world believe that Jesus came to save human beings all over the world from their sins. Again Was Jesus a liar to tell “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel“?
Before his death Jesus prayed to God “ Father I have glorified you on the earth.
I have finished the work which you have given me to do. John 15:7. I have manifested your name to the men whom you have given me out of the world.
They were yours, they have kept your word. I have given to them the words which you have given me. I pray for them, I do not pray for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. Now I am no longer in this world but they are in the world. I do not pray that you should not to take them out of the world, but that you should keep them from the evil one” (John.15:6,9,11,15). Remember Jesus preached only in the synagogues of Jews and nowhere else. So Jesus gave the word of God only to the Jews and he prayed for Jews only and Jesus said “ I do not pray for the world” . Why Jesus the person who came to save the world pray for Jews only ? And who is this evil one in the world?
Jesus commanded his disciples ( not merely instructed ) that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ. Mt.16:20. Then why Peter and apostles preached Jesus was the Christ?
Jesus Said ,” Not every one who says to me. Lord, :Lord “ shall enter the kingdom of heave, but he who does the will of my father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your names, and many wonders in your name ? And then I will declare to them I never knew you, depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.” Mt. 7:21-23. Will anybody other than a Christian will call Jesus “Lord ,Lord”. Will anybody other than a Christian can do miracles in the name of Jesus ? Will anybody other than a Christian prophecy in the name of Jesus ? Then why Jesus will tell them I never knew you? Is Jesus a Cheat to say like that to his disciples ?
My book will give accurate answer for unanswered questions like this. My book will prove very systematically that Christian religion is the result of wrong interpretation of Bible. Then was the apostles of Jesus misleading the world or cheating the world ? Why all these things happened? Answer for this question is in the words of Jesus “ Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill”. How Jesus fulfilled the Law ? My book will reveal the astonishing unbelievable mystery.
Will you examine my work and if you are convinced that my work is worth to be published, will you please help me to publish my work.
Daniel
Please send your reply through
daniel.benzion@gmail.com
Hi Daniel
your thoughts are interesting. What I need to know is how do I determine whether you, the Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Davidians or one of all the other cults are the true Witnesses to the true Christ?
The other question is if Jesus is not God and came to save the world then what does it mattter what we believe. Ultimately it takes a miricale to save us and the last time I looked no human being is capable of bringing people back to an eternal life but God. SO until someone (you) can prove otherwise I shall continue to believe in Jesus as God and the Son of God the Father.
Thanks Robert
Dear Daniel Paul,
You seem to be a scholar and your ideas regarding Jesus happen to be something I have harbored for long. In addition to Paul’s misinterpretation of Jesus there are other aspects of Christianity that a scholar like you could pursue. This line of investigation may start with the Synod decisions of Nicaea and subsequent Synods that lay the foundations of today’s Christian religion. To start with the final draft of the synod of Nicaea was approved by Constantine the Roman emperor whose credentials in literacy and adherence to Christianity are indeed questionable. All Christian churches all over the world were influenced by the creed although many may have disowned it in whole or in part.Do research with an open mind and you will see how those who follow the true Jesus have been mislead all these years. Good luck to your efforts.
Cherian
I was born in a Christian family.
Being brought up as a Christian I started studying bible believing Jesus is the Christ and son of God. I happened to believe that Jews lost their kingdom and they were scattered all over the world and was subjected to indescribable sufferings and persecutions because they rejected Jesus and crucified him. When I studied Bible and Jewish history I found they are not a lot to be hated and to be ignored. The hatred, reproach, persecutions, killings and sufferings they met in this world annoyed my mind very much.
Being a Christian I believed that If Jews can accept Jesus as Christ and son of God they can overcome all their problems and find out everlasting peace in their life. I intended to write a book to convince them undoubtedly that Jesus is the Christ and son of God. With this intention in mind I again began to study Bible and history to collect materials for my book. I spent whole my life for this venture, I can say about 45 years I spent to study Bible and history. .
To my great astonishment and against to all my expectations and wishes I found Christian Religion is not built upon the teachings of Jesus. In fact Jesus never claimed he is the messiah or son of god. Christian belief and preaching from A to Z is wrong. Christian religion is the culmination of wrong interpretation of Bible. Hence I found A new and different interpretation is necessary to reveal the hidden truth in the New Testament. Why?
St.Paul, known as the master builder of Christianity says “We know in part and we prophecy in part” (1.Cori.13:9) If knowledge of Paul and other apostles are not full and perfect, how can their interpretation or teaching be perfect? Paul continues, “But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away” (13:10) It is evident from the words of Paul that he expects that which is perfect will come. So He advises us, “ Leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and faith towards God, of the doctrine of baptisms, or laying on hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.” (Hebr.6: 1-2) Do Christians have any thing new to say other than what Paul mentions as the elementary principles of Christ?
Paul is certain that the things they taught the Christians are not perfect. That is why Paul says, “I could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it.”(Cori.3:1,2) Paul said it at the childhood of Christianity. 2000 years have passed and still Christians are drinking the milk provided by Paul. Are not the Christians now able to take solid food?
Paul says, “ When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” (Cori.13:11) Paul wants the Christian religion to do away with childish things when it will attain maturity. Can any one always remain a child? Has not Christian religion grown up enough to understand the hidden truth in New Testament? A new and different interpretation is necessary to reveal the hidden truth in the New Testament..
Jesus said “ Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword “. (Mt.10:34) Main function of Messiah is to bring peace, but stating I have come to bring a sword Jesus clearly says he is not the messiah. But What the world think about Jesus ? Even the persons who do not believe Jesus is Christ and son of God think that Jesus was the prince of peace. And the world celebrates the birth day of Jesus exchanging wishes for peace. It is interesting we don’t know the exact date of birth of Jesus. Do you think that Jesus was a liar to tell “I did not come to bring peace but a sword”?
Jesus Said “ I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
Mt. 15:24. Jesus didn’t went out side of Israel for preaching, not only that He instructed his followers “ Do not go into the way of the Gentiles and do not enter a city of Gentiles , but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel “. But what the world think about Jesus ? Christians all over the world believe that Jesus came to save human beings all over the world from their sins. Again Was Jesus a liar to tell “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel“?
Before his death Jesus prayed to God “ Father I have glorified you on the earth.
I have finished the work which you have given me to do. John 15:7. I have manifested your name to the men whom you have given me out of the world.
They were yours, they have kept your word. I have given to them the words which you have given me. I pray for them, I do not pray for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. Now I am no longer in this world but they are in the world. I do not pray that you should not to take them out of the world, but that you should keep them from the evil one” (John.15:6,9,11,15). Remember Jesus preached only in the synagogues of Jews and nowhere else. So Jesus gave the word of God only to the Jews and he prayed for Jews only and Jesus said “ I do not pray for the world” . Why Jesus the person who came to save the world pray for Jews only ? And who is this evil one in the world?
Jesus commanded his disciples ( not merely instructed ) that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ. Mt.16:20. Then why Peter and apostles preached Jesus was the Christ?
Jesus Said ,” Not every one who says to me. Lord, :Lord “ shall enter the kingdom of heave, but he who does the will of my father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your names, and many wonders in your name ? And then I will declare to them I never knew you, depart from me, you who practice lawlessness.” Mt. 7:21-23. Will anybody other than a Christian will call Jesus “Lord ,Lord”. Will anybody other than a Christian can do miracles in the name of Jesus ? Will anybody other than a Christian prophecy in the name of Jesus ? Then why Jesus will tell them I never knew you? Is Jesus a Cheat to say like that to his disciples ?
My book will give accurate answer for unanswered questions like this. My book will prove very systematically that Christian religion is the result of wrong interpretation of Bible. Then was the apostles of Jesus misleading the world or cheating the world ? Why all these things happened? Answer for this question is in the words of Jesus “ Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill”. How Jesus fulfilled the Law ? My book will reveal the astonishing unbelievable mystery.
Daniel
daniel.benzion@gmail.com
God is rational and created all things therefore all that He created is surely rational and thus available to the study of science. Science seeks the truth and God is truth so ultimately science should seek and find God. How do you see this happening?
In my view truth is what has value, God is infinitely valuable. Science needs to seek what has value. Value has an economic correlate and objective in the sense that a value is either positive or negative. We are to care for the world and if we say that the world is a thing of value then our actions surely should increase the value of the world. This is doing the Will of God and science if it seeks truth as value seeks that which increases the value of the world so that science is made to work in the service of God.
Robert