In another post, bestselling author Anne Rice told you her story – how, through historical research, she became convinced the facts support a real Jesus who rose from the dead. She explains how and why she left atheism to embrace hope.
Then, in 2010, she left the church. She said:
“For those who care, and I understand if you don’t: Today I quit being a Christian … It’s simply impossible for me to ‘belong’ to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I’ve tried. I’ve failed. I’m an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else.
“My faith in Christ is central to my life. My conversion from a pessimistic atheist lost in a world I didn’t understand, to an optimistic believer in a universe created and sustained by a loving God is crucial to me. But following Christ does not mean following His followers. Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity and always will be, no matter what Christianity is, has been or might become.”
Many have asked my thoughts about Anne Rice’s departure from the Catholic Church. Let me tell you my own story of struggling with quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious church people.
When I was 12, my mom went “bipolar.” Manic depressive with mild schizophrenia.
Except that for a year and a half, nobody knew that’s what was wrong with her. We just knew she was impossible to live with.
The fights, the arguments and contention would start as soon as I got home from school every day and stretch past bedtime.
Our entire family was bedlam for a year and a half.
Mom would swing from being your best friend to your worst enemy at the slightest provocation. I’d come home from school and find she’d tossed boxes of my stuff in the garbage. She’d say embarrassing things to my friends.
She insisted dad wasn’t really her husband. She said he was a man who looked just like Bob and she was sentenced to live with him until the ‘real’ Bob came back. When he came home from work she would hurl accusations at him. My brother and sister and I would complain bitterly to him about how she was treating us.
It was almost impossible to not get sucked into some kind of conflict every day. Home was the most dangerous place a kid could be.
My dad was taking her to doctors and counselors but nobody seemed to be able to arrive at any conclusion. Meanwhile, people watched us with a judgmental eye.
My dad was an associate pastor at a very large church in Nebraska, 2000+ members. Dad started getting heat from his boss, the senior pastor, Mr. G, who didn’t like the fact that one of the pastors’ wives was “out of line.”
Mr. G quoted the scripture that says a pastor should be in control of his family and told dad if he didn’t straighten out mom’s problem, he might have to leave.
Dad pursued answers and eventually got mom to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist diagnosed her with a chemical imbalance and bipolar disorder.
That trip to the psychiatrist was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Psychiatrists and psychologists, in Mr. G’s opinion, were the new high priests of a secular order that would dismiss all human ills as curable illnesses. Psychiatrists didn’t have the courage to call evil by its real names – SIN and DISOBEDIENCE. They existed to give people like my mom an alibi. Mr. G declared Mom insubordinate and rebellious.
Literally on the same day the diagnosis came back, Mr. G and Mr. J, the pastors of our church, visited our house to deliver the news. We all sat in the living room as they announced, “We’ve asked your father to resign from his responsibilities. He’s no longer qualified to be a pastor.”
I listened without much comment. I was 13. My older sister, however, was livid. At 18 she’d formed definite opinions about what had transpired. She started sobbing and retorted angrily to Mr. J: “If people knew what YOUR daughter does when she’s out at night, they’d be forcing you to resign too.”
Mr. J said, “We’re not here to talk about me or my family today, Robin. We’re here to talk about you.”
Earlier that day, dad had been brought before the Board of Elders to hear their final verdict. One by one, they agreed with Mr. G: “Bob, you’re not in control of your family. We’re sorry, you have to step down.” Mr. G demoted dad and announced to 2,000 people the following Sunday that dad had “resigned” so he could “attend to problems with Betty and the family.”
The next months were painful indeed. Few knew the real story. Some gathered around us. Most only knew something disgraceful had happened though and kept their distance. We felt like pariahs.
Dad couldn’t hang with his same friends anymore. He wasn’t invited to lunch at work. They shut him out of staff meetings. They hadn’t cut his pay, but he did lose a tax deduction. Less money to go around.
A couple months later I got into a fist fight at school. Came home with two black eyes. Bad report cards and complaints from teachers. All this added to the mounting case against dad.
He would come home from work every night and sit on the couch and sob. Mom told him it was all his fault for being such a cruel tyrant.
Dad followed through with the psychiatrist’s advice to get her on a prescription drug. Literally within a few days, mom transformed from defiant and combative to quiet and cooperative. The bizarre behavior stopped completely. Not only that, she went from being angry and defensive to feeling deep remorse about her erratic behavior.
Soon it became clear that Mr. G torpedoed dad simply because mom had a medical problem – a chemical imbalance – and that mom’s behavior wasn’t “sin” or “rebellion.” It was a well-understood mental illness. She couldn’t help herself.
Dad was hurt and humiliated and felt abandoned. He desperately wanted to bail. A lot of people told him he should quit his job, especially our relatives who understood the scope of the situation.
Dad thought about pulling up stakes, moving elsewhere. He decided to stick it out. To argue his case and vindicate himself.
Few men had the balls to stand up to Mr. G, but dad did. As mom’s condition improved, he said, “Mr. G, you made a wrong judgment and you need to apologize to my wife.”
Furthermore dad made Mr. G write her a letter of reconciliation, because by this time mom had become terrified of Mr. G. He had, after all, the ability to singlehandedly destroy dad’s career.
Nine months after dad had been demoted, he was reinstated.
Two weeks later dad was diagnosed with cancer.
Had dad cut and run, he would’ve been in a newcomer in some new environment, maybe even starting over in a brand new city, surrounded by strangers.
But since he’d stuck it out and vindicated himself, we were surrounded by a faith community that lent us help with dinners and financial support and prayers and encouragement.
Dad had major surgery. He was cancer free for a year and a half, then it came back. Treatments were unsuccessful, and as it became clear that he wasn’t going to make it, Mr. G secretly mailed a letter to everyone else at church. He explained how this summer might be Bob’s last and it would be really nice to raise some money, so Bob can take a trip to the West Coast.
$10,000 came in. In 1986 that was enough to not only take dad to California, a place he’d always longed to visit, but it was enough to get all of us to Alaska and Hawaii too. Dad experienced a 5 week “last hurrah” with his wife and kids that July.
That October, he died. I was 17.
I can’t tell you how many things I’ve wanted to quit, and didn’t, because dad wouldn’t throw in the towel and walk away from a bunch of quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous people.
And say what you want about ’em, when you’re in the oncology ward with terminal cancer, those are the same people that will probably be with you as you pass from here to the other side.
They will still have their faults and you will have yours, but… blood is thicker than water.
A faith community can become just as close and even closer than your biological family. It’s why they can hurt you so easily.
But there’s no such thing as a real community, or even a real relationship, that isn’t vulnerable. Painfully so sometimes. During our special vacation to California, dad told me that getting rejected and blamed for a mess he had no control of had been worse than dying of cancer was now.
Peter asked Jesus, how many times should I forgive my brother? Seven times?
Jesus said, “Seventy times seven. That’s how many times you should forgive.”
What do you forgive people for, anyway??
For being quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous. For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14-15.
After the potluck dinners have ended and people start throwing chairs at each other, it’s so easy to pull the plug and run. So many marriages don’t work out, it’s so easy to just live with someone and see how things turn out.
It IS easier.
It’s easier at first.
But when a series of relationships fail, they rip your heart to shreds just as much whether you were married or not. It just seemed like not ‘committing’ yourself lessened the risk. If your “common law wife” leaves you after 10 years, how is that any less painful than if your legally married wife leaves you? Just because it’s ‘unofficial’ doesn’t make it less perilous.
I’ve had to make multiple passes of forgiveness about Mr. G. A few years later when more fiascoes erupted, I had to let go again.
A few years after that, it occurred to me that my dad might not have even gotten cancer in the first place had he not endured two years in such a toxic, unsupportive, humiliating environment. That’s speculation, but still I had even more forgiveness I had to do.
A year ago I realized I needed to confront yet another layer of unforgiveness within myself. I had made a conscious choice to let go of the past, when I suddenly felt God saying to me, “The Father’s Heart is going to be poured out over Mr. G and his church.”
The day you forgive anther person is the day new blessings get released into their life. The day you forgive another person is the day you stop being a victim of whatever they did to you.
Dear Anne Rice, I greatly esteem your writing and your scholarship. I commend you for your adroit case for the historical Jesus. I appeal to you as a brother and member of the imperfect body of Christ, that to exit and publicly denounce them is to embrace quarreling… hostility… and public disputes.
From an individual view it’s all justified. But isolation makes islands of all of us. When we who were mistreated gather together in opposition to those who did us wrong, we inevitably become like those whom we judge.
A few years ago I visited an old college buddy in Washington DC. He was an exquisitely smart, seminary educated man who’d been a pastor in a Protestant evangelical church. He’d recently converted from Protestant to Eastern Orthodox.
Eastern Orthodox??? Most Americans don’t even know what that is.
I was dying to hear his explanation. “I don’t know what Peter’s going to tell me, but it’s sure gonna be interesting.”
I wasn’t disappointed. We sat up late three nights in a row exploring his decision. I don’t have time for the whole story now, but one of the points he made was this: “Protestants have ‘splitting off’ in their very DNA. As soon as they disagree, they leave First Baptist Church to go start Second Baptist Church. Then some of those people split off and form Third Baptist Church and on and on it goes.
“Catholics and Orthodox people don’t automatically do that. They prize unity. I have a bishop over me and he’s like a father to me and my wife. We live in community and in covenant together. He’s responsible to look out for us and we choose to be in a trusting mutual relationship.”
Whether you’re Protestant or Catholic or Orthodox… or if you’re on the outside looking in… I want to encourage you: living the nomad life is less demanding in the short term but lonelier in the long term.
As you make forgiveness a way of life, when you choose to live in community, you earn a kind of compound interest of grace. Months or years do not always reveal the fruit of that. It grows evident over decades. Community is the only place where you truly learn to forgive and learn to love.
The only way we exorcise our demons – both figuratively and literally – is in committed relationships with other people. Those around us are mirrors. They show us our faults, and we theirs. As we bathe those faults in mercy and forgiveness we become the people we aspire to be.
Perry Marshall
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I would like to ask everyone to pray for my family and me. It doesn’t matter to me if you go to a building to worship or not; just that you are a believer. Many would not believe what I and my children (who are all the physical family I have left in this world) have been through. However, I still am thankful that God has not let us go through it alone. But since I have no church home (building or denomination) I ask anyone who is a believer to keep us in your prayers. Thank you and God bless you.
Praying for better circumstances to come your way and that Father blesses you in whatever your need is. Wish I knew more of your specific needs so I have placed that in the Hands of Yeshua, amein.
While I cannot understand your own unique circumstances, I do understand difficult circumstances and loosing most of my family. Without the faith of having a God who loves me I would undoubtedly take myself out of this life. It is very hard to find compassion within the walls of a church (I find it so, anyway). So, I seek out others who love Christ, study their Bibles, and will fellowship with me. It’s becoming easier to find. While it’s not organized (which is fine), it remains fresh and we are respectful towards each other even tho we may no think the same. I find myself with so much to think about afterwards, such as with this thread. You WILL be in my prayers because I must pray for others in similar circumstances to myself every day. I have chosen this path but it is unpopular and easy to be judged in a negative way. God bless your family and your carefully chosen choices for their benefit. May your bellies be full, your minds be satisfied and your hearts be treated kindly.
Kathryne
James 1 verse 2 “Count it pure joy MY BRETHREN whenever you face trials and tribulations of many kinds,”
1. Holy Spirit joy is pure joy.
2. This written to believers.
3. He doesn’t “if you face trials” he says “WHEN”.
4. Read on and learn about the perseverance God is building in you and your family.
May He bless you all beyond your wildest dreams and imaginations…
What IS GOD? WHERE IS IT NOT? Even these questions are created BUT from WHERE ? What are thoughts made up of ? Consciousness? Awareness ? Isness ? Intelligence ? JOY? In Sanskrit Isness is SAT Intelligence is CHIT and JOY is ANANDA i.e. THIS IS SATCHITANANDA
Yeshua speaking to His Jewish brothers, John 5:39-47, (NASU), 39″You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41″I do not receive glory from men; 42but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43″I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44″How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? 45″Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46″For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47″But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
To the Gentile today, if you believe Him, Yeshua (Jesus) then you must learn the writings of Moses to clearly understand Him. And then you will find God
Anne Rice quits church…
What to do? Shall we try to stop her? Ask her /beg her/?
She publicly declares that the Bride of Christ – the Christian Church is “deservedly infamous”- shall we say that we understand her feelings and try to persuade her that there are some good things in the Body of Christ?
NO! This lady once quitted God in her youth -“under sexual pressure”, she says. Well, let us assume that she didn’t understand what she was doing then. Doesn’t she understand it now? She is regarded by everybody as someone highly intellectual, right? Doesn’t she know that love towards God cannot be split from love towards the brethren? She certainly knows, but she doesn’t care. She despises God’s commandments to love, even Christ Himself who sacrificed his life lead by love for sinners.
NO! This woman has made her choice in full conscience. She is not a friend and shoudn’t be treated as such. Our innermost spiritual experiences should only be shared with and exposed to brothers and sisters.
Christans, we are the children of the Allmighty! We are bound to have dignity for His sake!
I am not Catholic, I am not American and don’t know the state of the Christian Church there, I am not an expert even in the state of Christianity in Bulgaria, my country. The state of the church is a separate discussion, a conversation for Christians – for those who stay, believe, forgive and are forgiven, fall and rise and …praize the Lord!
My way in faith was one of the hardest and loneliest. I stay.
Bride of Christ?? Or Whore of Babylon???
What is your point?
Are you saying that the Bride of Christ is a whore?!!
Anne Rice doesn’t leave a concrete congregation.
This woman doesn”t want to be a christian, she doesn”t want to belong to the Bride!
I never said that the whore of Babylon doesn”t exist.
But I said: ” The state of the church is a separate discussion, a conversation for christians…”
Dear Constantino,
In your count of Popes, does it include the time when three ruled simultaneously but at different locations? How about the alleged woman?
The Manifested Sons are coming!
Ray
Ray,
Just like in some kingdoms and governments, there are usurpers.
constantino
It is absurd to say that the roman catholic church is the first to be established and that it is the only true church of Christ.History seems to suggest otherwise. The first organised church seems to have been established in Jerusalem under the leadership of James immediately after Jesus reappearance after resurrection on the Pentecost day.There are indeed other churches such as the Orthodox Churches that are zealously following Jesus teachings and traditions. The lead that RC church got was only due to the Roman emperor Constantine accepting Christianity as the official faith of the Roman Empire. The empire flourished for several centuries followed by colonization of the remaining part of the world that was not a part of the Roman Empire.However a rigid adherence to the sort of belief that you have is the cause of the downfall of Christianity which is not far away.If you have doubts I suggest reading William Dalrymple ” ——Holy Mountain” which accurately deals with the spread of Islam in the Byzantine Empire. Although in this case it was the Orthodox Churches which got destroyed by Islam the fate of the RC church also will not be very different. George Cherian
Dear George,
Islam did not destroy the Orthodox Church. It still exists. The Roman Empire, the Goths, Visigoths, Saxons, Gauls, Tartars, and other “barbarians”, even Islam did not destroy the Roman Catholic Church either. “No gates of hell shall prevail against it”. “I will be with you till the end of time.” That is Jesus’ assurance.
In Jesus’ messages in the True Life in God, He said that the Orthodox of the East (Paul’s) and the Roman Catholic Church of the West (Peter’s) are like lungs in His Body. Both lungs are needed for the Body to function well. That is why He calls on them to unite, to unite the date of Easter and to unite under the Eucharist.
He said further, “Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants you are all Mine… Like 3 Iron Bars, You are all rigid… You lack humility that is why you cannot unite…but I will come with My Fire to melt you into one…”
The Church will have to undergo cleansing by “Fire of the Holy Spirit” . This fire has to come to put an end to rebellion and apostasy and division in the Church. And it will be a terrible day when the wrath of God is unleashed to cleanse this sinful world. At the end, the world will know that He is the Alpha and the Omega, and the Church will be united under the staff of Peter upon whom it was built.
If you are incredulous about these messages, it would do well for you to read them. The book is few clicks away from you.
Constantino.
Those are the messages in the True Life in God.
“True Life in God”, I cannot conceive that this book is “inspired”, intersting in some aspects but I would not place any significance on this book, it may even be the work of satan posing as an angel of light.
I have a some questions for you.
1.What is the purpose of religion?
2. Is Christianity a must for our souls to continue onward?
3. Is our God a loving god who created us and cares for us?
4. Does God only love those who are Christians?
My answer to the first question is that theology or religion gives us a guide to living a productive, kind and caring life that helps us nuturing our own soul and the people around us.
The way to worship God is a very personal choice between yourself and God.
Just one way of thinking and not I believe the only way. Just my way.
Hi Beverly, excellent questions. Here, for what they’re worth are my *short* answers:
1. Depends how you use the word “religion”. Many people think religion is a belief system. Be careful, religion is man’s feeble attempt to justify himself in front of God through works. If we could do that then Jesus wouldn’t have had to suffer and die on that cross…
2. No. Absolute faith in Jesus Christ is a must for us to have “everlasting life”. The alternative is everlasting separation from God (spiritual death).
3. Yes. But we are not able to see God’s love in His context and therefore we criticise it and wonder how such a cruel world could have been made by God, who the bible says IS LOVE! This is probably the primary excuse people use for not turning to God for salvation. Then they can justify their own foul lives and keep on living them… Rom 3.23 “For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” (Emphasis mine).
4. This question shows how little we know about God’s love. If God is LOVE how can He differentiate along any lines, let alone between believers/non-believers? God’s love for all of us is unconditional. Read the book of Hebrews carefully and with an open heart. God is not a respecter of persons. He has put in place a way for you to get saved. You choose: eternal life or eternal separation from Him?
Chris
A revelation came to me, or, may be just simply a thought. After a long thought on this blog and about all what people have shared here. Since True Life in God has been mentioned, and knowing how much those who follow Jesus Christ still despise what is in being told. I suggest that everybody read that first, at least finish the first volume, and seek yourself how will the fruit be bore from (see Matthew 7:15-16).
I shall share with you how after reading TLIG my faith and the way I face life change. I was a really coward young boy who afraid of such frightening things (superstitions, diseases, or what have you–unbelievable it is) but my faith strengthen and I realize a lot of things about what have been and will be brought to me in life, that whatever it is going my way Jesus Christ is always with me every breath away. Not in somewhat delusional or deceitful belief about Him, but in the way that He is really by my side and I must be just like Him in every way (nobody said it will be easy, not even Jesus Christ himself–in fact, His way will be in full torment, see Matthew 24). I am not going into details here, but one thing that is be said again in TLIG; how so much cunning the devil is by using from such a very simple things we so often overlooked up to so advanced things we may believe that they are to be true. From such so small negative words (which might be felt right on the moment), such joyous praising that in fact redirects our attention from God (because concentrating on how to keep up), up to some advanced scientifically proven materials. Whether they are people or things, we shall know what kind of fruits they bear as long as we have meekness (see 1 Timothy 6:11) (even meekness to the extreme–died on the cross but still silent as a lamb– Acts 8:32). One of the bad fruit which should be easily recognized is called ‘separation’–the Bible does not cause it but the person which is forcing their own understanding does. I hope I make my point clear here.
As for Anne Rice, which I may say, also reflects how our daily lives in holding on to faith, all we have to remember is that people do not have power over soul (see Matthew 10:28). What are we going to save, our earthly life or our everlasting soul? And how are we going to save our soul? Obviously, not by living in feud with others.
As for different Christian religions, I have seen how so many of those so called themselves Christians but not pay respect, even despise the one so worthy of our devotion. I am talking about Mother Mary here and how so many Protestants seem to neglect her. She is the one to bear Jesus Christ so He can be a human in every aspect. Eloi needs to be human not to understand us, but for us to recognize Him and be saved. When we are disciples of Jesus Christ then She is our mother (John 19:27).
What is part of my thought above has to do with this discussion? That is one example of how some Christian religions divert themselves from the teachings of Jesus Christ. The ‘people’ in the organized religion (Catholic) may not have their way always right but we must be able to recognize how much that organized religion implements Jesus Christ’s teachings even to the least verse written in the Bible. And as far as I concern, Catholic has always been consistent with the Bible though the ‘understandings of the people’ at times may not. I do not have the power in me to declare whether Roman Catholic is the righteous one or not, what I can tell is, I have heard, seen and witness so many good fruits comes out of it from every corner of the world, though mostly under the radar. You may argument about these fruits, about how they may be part of Roman Catholic propaganda, or about how Roman Catholic has been so widespread, but the fact is they are real and, the people who are doing the deeds are educated in Roman Catholic way, have touched so many lives of real people (by sacrificing/neglecting oneself). May be not your lives or mine, may be not from Roman Catholic congregation near by, but good fruits they are nonetheless.
Dear Albanus,
Thank you for witnessing about True Life in God. Most of those who read the book become committed Christians because they recognize the Voice of Shepherd in this book.
Do you want to hear the Voice of God speaking to humanity these days, I encourage all to read the book. It will explain all that confuse each and every Christian, even non-christians.
It is just a few keys in the internet: TLIG
Thank you.
CONSTANTINO
The Roman Catholic Church has so altered the Gospel of the Kingdom I doubt any of the Apostles would accept Catholic teaching, and the Protestant Church is as culpable.
Dear Kalev,
I suggest you read history not with a jaundiced eyes and judge the Church without getting all facts. You cannot see the truth in the Catholic Church from the outside. Get inside first. I assure you, you will be converted to her.
Constantino
Thanks Chris Your response is appreciated…you may enjoy this web site.
http://www.newlifechurchhome.com
Eternal Blessings
Ray
Hi Ray
Thank you for the link.
Please excuse me for being blunt but I wasn’t impressed with your site.
Rom 8:19 is misquoted and I couldn’t figure its significance at all.
Personally I want to get away from calling the community “church”. A community is a community. Some communities have God in their center and some don’t. Even in God-centered communities the majority of “members” aren’t gonna make the cut. I’m not being judgemental, I’m just telling it the way it is.
We’re all rushing around like Job’s friends, pontificating and showing off how knowledgeable we are but we miss the point. At the last supper Jesus didn’t go off on some theological diatribe, He washed His friends feet. Wow!! We still can marvel at that today. But who of us are doing THAT?
Did you see the widow crying alone over her last morsel of bread? Did you see the orphans running hungry and naked, trying to hide their shame? Did you take them in your arms and comfort them? Without saying a single word? Just letting God’s love flow through you and into their spirits?
God will do the rest. You don’t have to be clever or theologically accurate. They see your heart. God sees your heart. And they will either open their hearts to Him or they won’t (Ezek 3:27).
And if they don’t He will give them lots more chances because we’re living in the dispensation of grace and because God is LOVE.
And, like it or not, most of us don’t make it (Ezek 3:7). And they’ll be quite a few of us with their blood on our heads (Ezek 3:18-19)…
Hi Ray
Thank you for the link.
Please excuse me for being blunt but I wasn’t impressed with your site.
Rom 8:19 is misquoted and I couldn’t figure its significance at all.
Personally I want to get away from calling the community “church”. A community is a community. Some communities have God in their center and some don’t. Even in God-centered communities the majority of “members” aren’t gonna make the cut. I’m not being judgemental, I’m just telling it the way it is.
We’re all rushing around like Job’s friends, pontificating and showing off how knowledgeable we are but we miss the point. At the last supper Jesus didn’t go off on some theological diatribe, He washed His friends feet. Wow!! We still can marvel at that today. But who of us are doing THAT?
Did you see the widow crying alone over her last morsel of bread? Did you see the orphans running hungry and naked, trying to hide their shame? Did you take both of them in your arms and comfort them? Without saying a single word? Just letting God’s love flow through you and into their spirits?
God will do the rest. You don’t have to be clever or theologically accurate. They see your heart. God sees your heart. And they will either open their hearts to Him or they won’t (Ezek 3:27).
And if they don’t He will give them lots more chances because we’re living in the dispensation of grace and because God is LOVE.
And, like it or not, most of us don’t make it (Ezek 3:7). And they’ll be quite a few of us with their blood on our heads (Ezek 3:18-19)…
Hi Chris, Sorry for the delay in responding (busy time).
I do intend to reply soon…my only question right now is…How is Rom. 8:19 misquoted? Maybe two questions, how would you set up the site if you were managing it?
thanks
Ray
Hi Ray
Your site quotes Rom 8:19 “For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.”
The NIV has “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.” Note “creation” not “creature”. Note the expectation is for revelation. In your version (King James?) the expectation is focussed on the creature and that doesn’t make sense.
And the Amplified has “For [even the whole] creation (all nature) waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God’s sons to be made known [waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their sonship].”
___
Your second question “How would you set up the site?” cannot be wholly answered without doing an in-depth analysis of what you all want to achieve.
I have prepared a short list of what I consider issues but I think I should email these to you privately. If Perry doesn’t have any objection let me have your email address.
___
BTW, the link on your handle on this site tries to find “www.newlifechurchome.com” but fails. Check for “churchhome” with 2 “h”‘s!
Chris
This blog has gone so far off target that pushing a secular book has become acceptable?
Hi Kalev, so bring us back on track. What do you think of “Anne Rice quits church”?
Your comments regarding the roman catholic church and the protestant church are wild unsubstantiated statements. There are still a host of loving people in these institutions because God has placed them there and they remain obedient. When we walk in front of God on judgement day will He say to some “but didn’t you see My faithful servant Kalev there? I sent him as a model for you all to follow.”?
Hi Kalev,
I was wondering if you referred to me as the one pushing a secular book. I really am pushing for the book True Life in God. It is not a secular book. It is a spiritual book. The writer of the book is Ms. Vassula Ryden but the Author is God. She is a Greek Orthodox, not a Roman Catholic. I am a Roman Catholic. What reason do I have to push a book of an Orthodox? I will leave it to you to find out what she is saying about the Roman Catholic Church in that book. Just click TLIG and there it is for you to read and judge.
Common, man! Just read it. Who knows you will hear the Voice of God in that book.
Constantino
Be very careful with this book. You are being deceived.
I believe Anne Rice could gain much if she spent the next year in deep Bible study and avoid organized religion. Many of the traditions of both the Catholic and Protestant religions are not prescribed in the Bible. I’ve spent the last 7 years trying to prove many of these traditions are Scriptural… and I cannot find that to be so. As for the individual Catholic or Protestant, I would try to point these things out in a loving manner if they ask me about them. You’re comment Chris does not seem to be said in a loving manner. I am truly sorry if my previous post upset you, but I will not retract it.
Dear Kalev,
Bible study is great. But without anchoring the Bible Study on the Tradition of the Apostles, it will only produce more division in the Body of Christ. Look what happened when Luther threw away the apostolic tradition. The Body of Christ broke into shards producing quarrelsome christians.
Constantino
Hello Kalev
Love is not always a soft palliative. In love Jesus suffered the cross and died an extremely painful physical death.
Chris
And the point is?
“You’re comment Chris does not seem to be said in a loving manner.”
Concerning Anne Rise. What is that to thee? (Quarrelsome church folks) Come thou and follow me! The goal of a genuine born again Christian is not to argue theological shibboleths. It’s that old boy’s distraction again designed to keep us from the most important job we have, which is to spread the good news and to be a sample of what He is like to the world. Jesus did not try to cram the truth of His words down peoples throats, especially the religious establishment of his day who eventually sought His demise for His dangerous doctrine of love!It was all voluntary, whomsoever will let him drink of the waters of live freely!God help us to Be like Jesus, “but rather go unto the lost sheep of Israel”. For those that are whole don’t need a physician but those that are sick. If You love Jesus than “Feed My sheep”!
Dear Abner,
Amen to that. You really hit the nail on the head.
constantino
Shalom Constantino,
Where is the Biblical command or the words of Messiah that directs us to worship His mother Mary. Under what authority did the RCC change the Sabbath from the seventh day to the first day? How does the communion wine become the actual blood of Messiah, or the wafer the actual body of Messiah? From where do Christmas and Easter originate?
Dear Kalev,
Catholics do not worship Mary. They venerate and honor her. Honor thy father and thy mother. I supposed Jesus honors her mother. Aren’t we supposed to do the same?
I think there’s need here to learn the meaning of words and their context.
The bible speaks of a “new rest”, a new rest promised to those people who are faithful to God.
It is by the power of the Holy Spirit which the priest invokes during the mass that transubstantiation takes place.
If you wish to look for proofs of bread and wine turning into the body and blood of Christ, browse on Eucharistic Miracles in the Catholic Church. You’ll find some documented stories there. Or if your finances allows you, visit the Cathedral of Lanciano in Italy. There you will find the body and blood of Jesus transubstantiated from bread and wine about the 7th century A.D. They are still fresh.
When probed by scientist, they discovered the flesh is from the muscles of the very center of the heart of a human. The blood coagulated into 5 globules of different sizes. One globule weighs the same as the remaining four. The weight of the the two is the same as the three. Scientist were baffled and cannot explain the phenomenon.
I have not read on the origin of Christmas and Easter. But from what I know, Christmas is a raw calculation of the supposed birth of the Christ and Easter his resurrection.
You see, early christians see these events as very important days in the life of Jesus so they have to be celebrated just like you celebrate the birthday of your loved one. Supposed your friend resurrected from the dead, won’t you also celebrate the day?
Constantino
Shalom Constantino,
Baloney, these are nothing more than traditions developed by men that are not Scriptural. Nothing I write will change your thought patterns, you are sold out to Catholicism. And just to be clear and honest I do not wear the Protestant label, they are almost as unbiblical as the Catholics. Nor am I a Messianic Jew. I have simply spent the last 7 years diligently syudying the Bible and have discovered that much of what I was taught at a younger age through a series of Protestant churches was not true. The “Law” has NOT been done away with, Sunday is NOT the Sabbath God commanded us to observe and the roots of Christmas and Easter run deep into the world of paganism. Yeshua warned His true follower to “come out of her” meaning the apostate church systems operating just prior to His return. Visit http://www.seedofabraham.net for verification of some of this info. Also there is another web site that is good for info, search for Jews and Joes and go to that site. Reply after you have taken some time to read from these two sites.
Sincerely,
Kalev
Hi Kalev
Correct, the ‘law’ has not been done away with. It has been superseded by “a better covenant established on better promises”; check the book of Hebrews. And “if you live by the ‘law’ you will die by the ‘law'”. It has no saving power and is therefor redundant. No one can keep the ‘law’. We all need grace.
“For by grace are you saved through faith…” Eph 2:8
Chris
Hello Chris,
Without the Law, Torah, I would never see my need for a savior. That Savior is Yeshua, the author of Torah. Yeshua lives a sinless life in complete obedience to the Law. Not all of the Law applies to me but those to do I must strive to obey to the very best of my ability and by faith in Yeshua my short comings to the Law will be fully covered, there’s your “better promises”.
I am disappointed you didn’t address any of my other comments addressed to Constantino and you should check out the web site I recommended http://www.seedofabraham.net, the comment back to me.
Hi Kalev
I do not live according to the law. I live, as best as I am able, in the Fire of the Holy Spirit.
Why should I visit the web site you recommend? Can it make me *more* saved than I am already?
I didn’t comment on your other points because basically they are correct. Except that easter without bunnies and eggs is for celebrating the death and resurrection of our Lord and Savior: He who saves His people, The Anointed One.
Chris
If you were to visit the web site I recommended you might read how the Torah (Law) relates to our faith in Yeshua, and that he completely obeyed Torah as it applied to Him. As followers of Yeshua we want to walk as He walked.
Hi Kalev
Jesus said there are two commandments. Of course you know them. When we follow Jesus we follow His love not the law.
For it is written in Hebrews 7:11 –
“If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priesthood to come – one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?”
and in verse 19 –
“The former regulation was set aside for it was weak and useless (for the law made NOTHING perfect), and a better hope is introduced by which we draw near to God.” (Emphasis mine).
Somewhere Paul warns Peter about getting BACK into the law and Peter had the dream of all the forbidden foods etc. with words from God to the effect “Bless it and eat”.
Looking BACK is dangerous. Lot’s wife looked BACK. Don’t do that Kalev, I implore you. Where is it that Jesus said “If you are free in Me you are free indeed.”
You’re not free when you are tied down by law and religion. Please be careful.
Chris
Peter’s dream had nothing to do with changing the food law, it had to do with Gentiles entering into to faith in Yeshua.
Torah did for me what God created it to do, point me to my need fir a savior and Yeshua is that Savior I need, but that does not invalidate Torah.
You have a zeal for faith but to invalidate Torah you invalidate Yeshua for Abba gave the Torah for guidance until Messiah came and He fully obeyed Torah as it applied to Him.
Because of Torah I fully understand what it means to me free in Mashiach.
I would also request that you review what Peter had to say about the word of Paul, 2 Peter 3:14-18, read it before any reply back to me brother.
Shalom aleikhem!
Hi Kalev
Where did I ever use the word “invalidate”?
___
Correct, the law was given to point to the need for a saviour because the law could not save anyone.
___
I read 2 Peter 3:14-18, and ?
Chris
Dear Kaleb,
Pax tecum!
Before the bible was compiled, early Christians anchored their belief in the Tradition of the Apostles, meaning the teachings of the apostles handed down orally. They didn’t have the scriptures handy unlike today. The Orthodox and the Catholics preserve these traditions that is why their teachings, doctrines, and liturgy do not differ. They are only split on leadership in the church.
Constantino
Dear Constantino,
Erm… correction: the Apostles had NO tradition; they were simply the direct WITNESSES of something new and momentous. And isn’t it telling that before the last Apostle had died, the Canon of Scriptures were completed, eliminating the need for tradition.
What is it that post-apostolic church fathers had to add to the message of the first witnesses anyway? The only thing I can think of is: confirmation of what the Apostles had said …which takes us back to square one above.
Hi Constantino
Let me first quote you:
– “early Christians anchored their belief in the Tradition of the Apostles”
– “Catholics preserve these traditions”
Now let me quote Jesus:
– “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?”
– “Thus you nullify the Word of God for the sake of your tradition.”
– (Quoting Isaiah) “They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.” Matt 15 3:9
Get on your knees and worship Jesus from your heart. Forget the countless years of church tradition, dogma and heresy and listen to the Holy Spirit speaking to you NOW, **NOW**
Chris
Dear Chris,
What about this: “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thess 2:15) Paul is not referring to Scripture alone, but to ORAL teachings, i.e. apostolic traditions. And it had to be so, because at the time he was writing, the only official Scriptures that existed were the Old Testament Scriptures. There WAS NO “New Testament” Scripture. It didn’t exist yet! How could they “only” believe in a collection of letters… which had yet to be written? The Apostles’ teachings were both written AND oral. Paul repeatedly refers in his letters to his “teachings,” which are clearly beyond the scope of what he wrote down. And these teachings were to be handed down to future generations: “And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.” (2 Tim 2:2) It doesn’t say “…and only the things I wrote to you…” Now does it? How about Acts 2:42 “They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.” It doesn’t say “they devoted themselves to Scripture alone,” Hmmm? Since the beginning, Christianity has relied on both written and oral teachings. These oral teachings, handed down to us by the apostles themselves, are what we refer to as apostolic traditions (e.g., when the Christian fellowship got together with Paul to break bread “on the first day of the week” (Acts 20:7), they weren’t following Scripture, rather apostolic tradition.).
Jesus spoke in Matthew 15:3 about how the Pharisees broke God’s command for the sake of THEIR traditions (which went against the Word of God). Yet somehow you bend statements like this to include ALL traditions? You must make the distinction between traditions of man, rituals which go against God’s Word, and apostolic tradition.
I suggest you look at this website: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html
“Mark 13:31 states that heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus’ Word will not pass away. But Jesus never says anything about His Word being entirely committed to a book. Also, it took 400 years to compile the Bible, and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the bishops of the Church, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit. Jesus commands the apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature. But Jesus did not want this preaching to stop after the apostles died, and yet the Bible was not compiled until four centuries later. The word of God was transferred orally. Jesus also commands the apostles to preach (not write) the gospel to the world. Jesus gives no commandment to the apostles to write, and gives them no indication that the oral apostolic word he commanded them to communicate would later die in the fourth century. If Jesus wanted Christianity to be limited to a book (which would be finalized four centuries later), wouldn’t He have said a word about it?”
Presumptuous opinions, without any credible proof.
Umm…. no. The FACT is, the Church founded by Jesus existed long before the New Testament came to be. Jesus orally imparted his teachings to his apostles, who imparted them orally to their disciples, etc. etc. Letters were meant to complement, not replace, what was being taught orally (see 1 Tim 3:14-15, where Paul states his letter is meant to instruct in the event he is delayed and can’t instruct orally in person). These oral teachings -what we generally refer to as the “apostolic traditions”- were a part of the early Church. The writings that make up the New Testament were not codified as such until the 4th century. And though these writings were being circulated before their codification, so were dozens of apocryphal writings as well. To tell the difference… well… you’d have to ask the apostolic tradition-bearing Church… As, in the end, with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, it was that same Church that defined which Gospels and Letters were authentic vs. the apocryphal writings…
“Since this is the case, in order that the truth may be adjudged to belong to us, ‘as many as walk according to the rule,’ which the church has handed down from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, and Christ from God, the reason of our position is clear, when it determines that heretics ought not to be allowed to challenge an appeal to the Scriptures, since we, without the Scriptures, prove that they have nothing to do with the Scriptures. For as they are heretics, they cannot be true Christians, because it is not from Christ that they get that which they pursue of their own mere choice, and from the pursuit incur and admit the name of heretics…. Tertullian, Prescription against the Heretics, 37 (A.D. 200).
“Now the cause, in all the points previously enumerated, of the false opinions, and of the impious statements or ignorant assertions about God, appears to be nothing else than the not understanding the Scripture according to its spiritual meaning, but the interpretation of it agreeably to the mere letter. And therefore, to those who believe that the sacred books are not the compositions of men, but that they were composed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, agreeably to the will of the Father of all things through Jesus Christ, and that they have come down to us, we must point out the ways (of interpreting them) which appear (correct) to us, who cling to the standard of the heavenly Church of Jesus Christ according to the succession of the apostles.” Origen, First Principles, 4,1:9 (A.D. 230).
Where is your proof of this? If you cannot prove this you are no different than the Pharisees of yeshua’s day with their traditions that nullified the Word of God. The Scripture they had was the Tanakh in Hebrew and Greek (LXX). Can you explain these words of Yeshua, what He meant here? John 5:39-47, (NASU), 39″You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41″I do not receive glory from men; 42but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43″I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44″How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? 45″Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46″For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47″But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Dear Constantino,
Thanks for the reply to my last blog regarding the demise of the Orthodox Church and Islam. I am afraid I cannot agree to what you have mentioned. Perhaps it would have been better if I had used the word Christianity in the place of the Orthodox Church. Surely you are not denying that the Byzantine Empire that dominated much of the world stretching from Constantinople to Alexandria are now predominantly Islamic. Perhaps all the communities were not Orthodox Christians. But a great majority of them were Orthodox, not that it matters in the present context. What is important in my view is that Christianity that existed is on the decline. If my memory serves me right there were hardly a few hundred Muslims in New York city when Malcom X and Muhamod Ali embraced Islam. Today the situation is that there are thousands of Muslims and several mosques in the city. What is more a great many White Anglo Saxon Protestants of USA are joining Islam. The same could be said about many other countries like Britain France and other prominent European countries. My theme was to reiterate that Christianity no longer offers solace to the believers whereas Islam seems to.
I do not know where from you have quoted the call for unity between Orthodox Catholic and Protestant groups. Ecumenical unity is all very good. But as a precondition the catholic faith will have to address the wider issue that Jesus can be meaningful for non catholic Christians too. To rigidly adhering to outdated notions that only catholics cans meaningfully hope for salvation as Christians will have to be jettisoned.
In my view Ann Rice’s actions of rejecting and accepting Catholic faith and Perry Marshall’s personal agony on account of his parents are due of the rigidity of the catholic faith. Personal factors play an important role too. But who in the catholic church cares about personal faith? I am orthodox by faith a follower of the faith brought to India in the first century CE by none other than St. Thomas. Not that our faith is any different when it comes to personal issues visa vis the church.
I would like to end this with a quote from Mahatma Gandhi meaning roughly the change that you want to see in others must first be accepted by you. Without this I do not see any future for Christianity.
Regards.
George
Dear George,
Do not be surprised if today many have departed from the Christian Faith. People go after what pleases their ears and not the way of the cross. Jesus said, when I come back, will I find faith on earth?
Do not also despair. Revelations says there will be a remnant. I hope we belong to it.
The call for unity of the Christians was made by Jesus Christ in the messages in the True Life in God. You have to read the book to appreciate it (or not). Majority of those who read the book are saying It is the Voice of the Shepherd. I encourage you to read the book and see for yourself whether it God really who is speaking to humanity today.
By the way many have mistaken notion that the Catholic Church teaches that only catholics can be saved. Read the Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Church, Lumen Gentium. It says all people will be saved whether they are animist, Muslims, and Protestants. But there are conditions. These conditions do not include requisite to join the Catholic Church. The constitution defines Church as, the People of God, not the Roman Catholic Church.It would be lengthy to expound here. I believe it may be available in the internet. Search it.
Constantino
Would you please send me once again an article written by you about many wonderful verses in Al Quran which shows the Prophet Mohamma wisdom . Among others you quoted that even He never was a sailor but he gives advices to His people about how to deal with problems at the sea which is so wonderful and advanced as if He was a very experienced Sailor.
I will make a comment on how people should concentrate in finding the good things in their own religion to shape a peaceful world and relationships.
Thank you
Hi Jusak
Do you know the Holy Spirit?
If you ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes He will. He’s very faithful like that.
Galatains has a lot to say about the law verses the Spirit.
The book will answer most questions presented in your posts.
Hi Gary
It is milk that is needed here. Galatians is serious meat IMO!
Chris
Dear Constantino, In your recent blog to another of our participants you have claimed that the Catholics do not pray to Mary. Is this really so. What about “Hail Mary—–” ? This is compulsory commitment after confession and on many other occasions. It is to my mind a prayer.
In the same blog you mention about the holy Eucharist being the body and blood of Christ. Christians believe so. But this is only symbolic and it is better that it remains so. To the present generation of people miracles like that does not make sense. But nevertheless it is a religious requirement and Catholics and Orthodox hold this idea close to their heart. It is good to have such icons in beliefs but better not rationalize it beyond the limits of human credibility.
Regards
George
Dear George,
Take a moment to dissect the “Hail Mary”:
The first phrase, “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee,” is the greeting the Angel Gabriel gave Mary (Luke 1:28). The second phrase, “Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus,” is the greeting John the Baptist’s mother Elizabeth stated when Mary visited her (Luke 1:42). Unless you believe these two Biblical characters were praying TO Mary, I hardly see how repeating their greetings constitutes prayer TO Mary. The second portion of the “Hail Mary” is a request for intercession: “pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.” And that is exactly what this is: asking Mary to intercede on our behalf. Of course, salvation and Grace come from God. But we commonly ask others to “pray for us,” i.e. intercede on our behalf. Why not ask the Mother of Jesus, that is, the Mother of God? BTW, we do not adore Mary. Adoration, or, “latria,” is reserved for God alone. The Saints are venerated (“dulia,” in Church terms) as exemplary humans who are in Heaven, and can intercede for us before God. “Hyperdulia,” or veneration above all Saints, is reserved for Mary, as being Mother to our Savior makes her special among all humans. And it is right to venerate her, as she herself said, “From now on all generations will call me blessed.” (Luke 1:48)
In terms of transubstantiation, Jesus emphasized this on several occasions (e.g. John 6:53). The Church Fathers believed it so:
“For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (A.D. 110-165).
“He once in Cana of Galilee, turned the water into wine, akin to blood, and is it incredible that He should have turned wine into blood?” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, XXII:4 (c. A.D. 350).
“He did not say, ‘This is the symbol of My Body, and this, of My Blood,’ but, what is set before us, but that it is transformed by means of the Eucharistic action into Flesh and Blood.” Theodore of Mopsuestia, Commentary on Matthew 26:26 (ante A.D. 428).
If Jesus said it, and the Church Fathers, those early Christians closer to Him than us believed it, on faith, so will I. If the present generation believes this not to make sense or to be beyond the limits of human credibility, I wonder what the present generation will think about a man dying and then coming back to life 3 days later…
Hi Cristian
Here are my questions:
1. Aren’t we strictly forbidden to make contact and to communicate with the dead?
2. Didn’t Saul lose his kingship for asking the woman of Endor to “bring up” Samuel? (1 Sam 28)
3. If Mary is human, and now dead, how can you ask her to intercede on your behalf?
4. Anyway, if your faith is in Jesus, why do you need *anyone else* to intercede on your behalf?
5. Are you suggesting that faith in Jesus is not enough?
6. That His death on the cross didn’t COMPLETELY atone for ALL your sins?
Oh dear!
Chris
I seem to be having trouble posting this, so let me try doing it peacemeal:
Dear Chris
1. If it was strictly forbidden to communicate with “the dead,” explain to me why 3 Gospels record Jesus speaking with “dead” Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration? Or were they alive in Heaven? If they are alive in Heaven, why not Mary/the Saints? Where in Scripture is it suggested that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in Heaven and the living on earth? If He did, why would Jesus communicate with Moses/Elijah?
2. There’s a vast difference between “bringing up” the dead through necromancy vs. pleading the Saints alive in Heaven for intercession. Saul’s sin was not in speaking with Samuel, but rather in asking a medium -an ungodly intercessor- to use a dark art to bring him up. When Aaron’s staff became a snake before the Pharaoh, was this not a miracle? Yet when Pharaoh’s sorcerers did the same with theirs through “secret arts,” was this not evil? The difference was in the “how.” BTW, Saul did not lose his kingship because of speaking with Samuel. Samuel himself said, “The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands… Because you did not obey the Lord and carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today.” (1 Sam 28:17-18).
3. Mary is not “dead.” She, as well as the Saints are alive in Heaven! Did Jesus not tell the criminal on the cross, “today you will be with me in paradise”? If the criminal is in paradise, why not his mother, Mary? Why not the Saints? Moses and Elijah? If they are there, are they not closer to God, and thus have a special capacity to intercede for us?
4. Paul had complete faith in Jesus, right? Yet he still commanded the Ephesians to pray for him (Eph 6:19). Why? Do you not ask others to pray for you? Are you not asking for their intercession? When Jesus commands us to pray for our enemies (Matt 5:45), is he not asking us to intercede for them? Did Mary not intercede on behalf of the wedding party, asking Jesus to do something about the lack of wine, despite Jesus telling her his time had not yet come? If Jesus is the “only” intercessor, why, in Phil. 1:19 does Paul acknowledge the power of the Philippians’ earthly intercession, stating, “for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.” Even in his 1st letter to Timothy, before stating that Christ is the “one mediator” between God and man, Paul urges that all prayers and intercessions be made for everyone. The point is, Jesus is the one Mediator -through which we have Salvation. But all of us, alive on Earth or Heaven, can intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters, as we are, as Paul said, God’s “fellow workers.” Intercession does not “save” us, rather, we use it to strengthen our petitions before God to grant us favor. This has nothing to do with lack of faith in Christ, but rather, in acknowledging that “The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective,” (James 5:16) and hence, can be used to plead our case before God.
You could argue that God does not need helpers, nor does He need convincing. But perhaps it is ourselves that need helping/convincing, and the act of pleading for ourselves or others can work to this goal. When God seemed intent on destroying Sodom, Abraham interceded on its behalf, and God agreed not to destroy it, even if there were only 10 righteous men there. Did God change his mind? Or was it God’s way of making Abraham realize that even the citizens of Sodom are worthy of mercy? Giving and receiving aid also brings us closer together, makes us more aware of our neighbors, shows us how interconnected we all are. We are not a collection of individual Jesus lovers, but part of a loving family.
What did the early Christians think of venerating the Saints/asking for their intercession?
“Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9 (A.D. 350)
“Even if we make images of pious men it is not that we may adore them as gods but that when we see them we might be prompted to imitate them.” Cyril of Alexandria, On Psalms 113 (115) (ante A.D. 444).
For Him [Christ] indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master… The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.” Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18 (A.D. 157).
Abraham interceded on Lot’s behalf, Sodom was an evil place, which Abraham knew and he wanted his cousin to be spared destruction.
Cyril would be guilty of making graven images.
Then I guess Moses would be guilty as well, as he made images of cherubim on top of the Ark of the Covenant, as well as on the curtan separating the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle (Exodus 25:18, 26:31)… except he did so because God told him to… Ooops! :-o
There’s a difference between idolatry and honoring someone. In Gen. 42:6, Joseph’s brothers bow before Joseph with the face to the ground. In Jos. 5:14, Joshua falls to the ground prostrate in veneration before an angel. In 2 Chron. 29:29-30, King Hezekiah and the assembly venerate the altar by bowing down in worship before the sin offering. Are they idolizing? Of course not.
And finally…
5-6. Nope, that’s your own straw man. I never said you “needed” to ask for intercession, only that you could, if you wanted. As I stated here, we are all interconnected, part of God’s loving family. And family members help each other out as well as ask for help whenever needed. If Jesus asked us to interced on others’ behalf, if Paul himself asked for intercessions, as did the Church Fathers, why not us?
Sorry, that’s piecemeal… :-)
Hi Cristian
In love.
I respect your knowledge and understanding of the scriptures and the traditions of the early “christians”.
I do not agree with your prognosis for the most part but I will not protract this debate further here.
So there is one question left unanswered: Why did Anne Rice (and millions like her) leave the church?
Chris
For this question why Anne Rice leaves the Church and millions other do, well, actually you have already known the answer; because so many think Catholic has done wrong and will not change its way (or any other churches not suitable for one’s thought). For a thought, say Catholic changes every time a person like Martin Luther has a strong disposition, or Calvin, or Anne Rice, or you. Catholic changes to suit their need, how many changes that would be? Four times (including your thought)? And then, what will Catholic become? Another denominations? Who or what will preserve the Apostle? You can’t deny that Catholic started to preserve the Apostle. Now, who or what else will do that for generations to come? More denominations? You may not understand what my point here. It is ok, I always try to understand why–at least it can be more learning on faith.
Your question essentially has the same position like in Jesus’s time, why so many Jews would not believe in Him? Whatever reason you put down, the truth is, they all come down to one conclusion, we stop to learn at some point and get fixated to our own thought (or our own collective thought). But, it raises another question, who or what triggered that thought you are holding on to? And, it is too frightening to change, maybe even more frightening than to go into confession room to truthfully confess sins.
And the prophecy all over again be fulfilled; And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceived: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matthew 13:14-15)
How then, we can really know that we are not including in “them”? For this I try to understand what is said in Matthew 18:2-5. Now, read that again and think what you understand from that. I understand not much, but I know that is because my knowledge alone will never suffice without Him. And for this, I pray.
Whenever I have something that I do not understand whether it is true or not, like some things have been said in this blog, I will take them with an open mind as possible with pray for the Holy Spirit and the spirit of saints to guide me through. Now, whenever I remember to pray, the truth is, I pray because I believe that Holy Spirit will guide me right and at the moment when I pray I will also be remembered how the saints had endured so much but stand firm because of the Holy Spirit in them. You see, all is interconnected/interrelated. Pray is not about asking but also about receiving. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Matthew 21:22)
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Matthew 11:29-30).
You know what you need to do… :)
Dear Chris,
Thanks for your respect, I appreciate it! I didn’t think I would convince you of my point of view (and that’s OK). More importantly, I wished to convey that the Catholic position regarding Mary/the Saints is not something that was pulled out of thin air, rather based on our interpretation of Scripture, as well as tradition handed down to us from the early Christians. I hope I succeeded in that aspect….
In any case, these are peripheral issues, really. Jesus left us with two commandments -love of God and neighbor. He did not say you needed to be a member of the Catholic Church for salvation! :-D So long as we believe in Christ as our Savior and honestly seek His ways while repenting for our missteps along the way, we should be all right, no? :-)
In terms of Anne Rice, she states she couldn’t handle the quarrelsome Christians. I’m assuming she meant she was tired of seeing hypocrisy in church. That can happen when keep seeing people professing love (for Jesus and neighbor) in church, yet the minute they’re out of the temple they begin bickering with each other. Unfortunately, every congregation is composed of imperfect humans, so I doubt she’ll have any better luck anywhere else. And here is where she misses the point: We’re ALL imperfect, yet despite our imperfections, God LOVES us, and He calls us to do the same. So despite her frustrations, she cannot turn her back on humanity, simply because it is “quarrelsome.” If she (and us) are to imitate Jesus, we must learn to love our neighbors despite their bickering. She alleges she will still be a Christian. But to be a Christian is to live in Community. Hence, if she goes out on her own, the name no longer fits…
Anne Rice is perhaps not the typical person leaving the Catholic Church. Many leave because they see the Church as too rigid in its positions, particularly on social issues (e.g. abortion, birth control, gay rights, divorce etc.). Few seem to understand that there is always active debate within the Church in relation to these and many other issues -though in the end the Pope, as successor to Peter, takes a final position. The Church is not meant to be a democracy, nor a popularity contest. Neither is it meant to be a club you can “kind of” follow some rules and break others at your own discretion. If you don’t like the rules, that’s fine. Nobody forces you to stay in the Church. You can try finding another church where you can find true spiritual happiness. The Church may be slow to change, but honestly speaking, I’d rather have a church that only changes after much deliberation, than one whose doctrines change with every new fad. And it is this reason that, though some have left the Church, others (e.g. Episcopalians unhappy with their church’s liberal positions) are returning.
Dear George,
Christian Tampe’s post answered your questions about Mary and the Eucharist. I couldn’t have answered better.
If you have still many doubts about Mary, perhaps it will help if you read books about Mary. I recommend you take hold of “The Wonders of Guadalupe”. On the Eucharist, browse Eucharistic Miracles of the Catholic Church.
About praying to the dead, Jesus said: God is not God of the dead but of the living.
Constantino
All the books in the world won’t change my view about Mary. There is nothing more special about her than there is about you or me.
To venerate, worship, pray to, pray through, implore or otherwise attempt to communicate with Mary is complete anathema for me. I thank God that we are living in His dispensation of Grace.
Chris, I suppose, then, that the Angel Gabriel is anathema to you, as it was he who first honored Mary, calling her “Full of Grace,” eh? I find it horrifying that you would not see anyting special in the person who delivered Jesus unto this world. And I’m sure Jesus would disagree with you, as I’m sure he holds his Earthly mother in high regard! :-D
Jesus said, ” I am the way, the truth,and the life. “No man comes the Father but by Me.” That says it, Jesus is the only way to God.
Amen brother.
And add to that, anyone outside of christianity who believes that Jesus is a prophet have a decision to make. Either Jesus lied or you had better fall on your face NOW and worship Him as the ONLY savior of your soul! The only One Who died and rose again, to atone for our sins, in the love that ONLY God can show.
Jesus is the way, but who is Jesus? Jesus is the “Word of God made flesh.” Hence, when he says he is the way, could this not be interpreted as him saying that the “Word of God” is the way? If knowing the physical Jesus was the only “way,” how is it that the Jewish patriarchs (e.g. Moses/Elijah) know salvation? We know they did, because Jesus speaks to them and about them as living persons, not dead and gone. How is it that God offers the Ninvites a chance to repent? Or is it that God, after seeing the Ninvites repent, turned around and said, Sorry guys, you are not of my People, so despite your repentance, you’re all doomed. How is it that the Roman Cornelius received an Angel’s visit, and received the Holy Spirit BEFORE becoming a Christian?
I certainly believe that Jesus is the reason we are saved. But I find it hard to believe that a loving God would condemn millions simply because they did not know the physical Jesus. I’m specifically speaking about those who have an implicit faith in a Messiah. That is, they did not know his name, but knew that God above would send them a deliverer. Consider the American Indians: for 15 centuries they waited for Europeans to bring them the Good News. 15 centuries of Indians -all condemned from the day they were born? How about newborns who die? The mentally handicapped? It’s hard to reconcile this, given that we know that God is a loving God, who wishes all all mankind to be saved.
Moses and Elijah were not Jewish, both were of the tribe of Levi, Levites.
You’re making a difference with no distinction. I was using the term “Jew” here in reference to the Israelites (who practiced the Jewish faith as we know today), not in the strict sense of the term meaning of the tribe of Judah. Even Paul, despite being of the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1), when asked who he was in Acts 21:39, states, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia.”
Paul could have been referring to the Kingdom of Judah, of which the tribe of Benjamin was part of. In any case, “beginning in the 5th century BCE, the remnants of the Israelites came to be referred to as Jews, named for the kingdom of Judah. This change is explicit in the Book of Esther.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites
Gary, so you interpret Scripture as literally meaning that ONLY by knowing the physical Jesus will we be saved. In that case, all those who lived BEFORE Jesus’ time are damned, no? All the Patriarchs? The Jews in general? How about all who have no way of ever knowing Jesus (e.g. 15 centuries of American Indians who waited for the Good News to arrive in the New World)? The mentally handicapped? The newborn who die?
Yet we know many of the Patriarchs are saved. Christ mentions that many “will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mat 8:11) Christ speaks to Moses and Elijah at the Mount of Olives (Mark 9:2-13). Clearly these patriarchs were saved, despite not knowing the physical Christ. How about the Jewish people? God told Abraham, “I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants… to be your God and the God of your descendants.” (Gen 17:7) Paul adds, “…for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.” (Rom 11:29) If everlasting and irrevocable, is the Old Covenant not still valid? Or did God break his promise to the Jewish people? How about the Ninivites? After Jonah preached to them and they repented, were they not saved? Or did God turn around and tell them, Sorry, but despite your repentance, you’re all still going to Hell, ’cause you’re not of my people, nor have you met Jesus!
In Acts 10:24-48, the Roman centurion Cornelius -neither Jew nor Christian- is described as “devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.” An angel visited him with a message from God. “God has heard your prayers and remembered your gifts to the poor.” The Holy Spirit came on all the members of his family, BEFORE being baptized as Christians, BEFORE knowing who Jesus was.
We all need a redeemer, for none of us is perfect. We Christians know this redeemer by name -Jesus Christ. Yet many (e.g. the Patriarchs, Cornelius) had faith in God, and knew God would redeem them -they just didn’t know the redeemer’s name. They had implicit faith in He whom we know explicitly as Jesus. Speaking of Abel, Noah, Moses, and Abraham, Paul states, “All these people were still living BY FAITH when they died. …they were longing for a better country–a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them… God had planned something better for us so that only TOGETHER WITH US would they be made perfect.” (Heb 11:13-16, 39-40, my emphasis) What about others, who had faith that God would redeem them, yet had no way of knowing God’s name? Are they damned?
“I am the way,” says Jesus. And Jesus IS the way. But who is Jesus? Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. Hence, could we not interpret this statement as meaning that the Word of God is the way? Thus, belief in the Word of God -faith in God, keeping his commandments, and believing His promise to redeem us- is the way to salvation?
The fact is, God wishes ALL to be redeemed, for Chirst came to redeem the sins of all. God is just, logical, and loving. And to shut the door of salvation on literally millions who may have had faith in God, but who never had a chance to know the physical Jesus sounds not at all like that. Who am I to tell what God should or should not do? I’m nobody, and that’s the point: though we can only be sure of salvation in Jesus, we shouldn’t be so quick to condemn the vast masses of humanity who through no fault of their own were unable to know the physical Jesus, for who are we to tell God who can or cannot be saved. God’s love is infinite, and thus capable of things we may not understand. As Paul said, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord?” (Rom 11:33-34)
Christian,
Who was the first Jew recorded in the Bible?
I assume when you mean the sons of Judah: Er, Onan, Shelah, Perez and Zerah, no? But what is the point of this, given that today all members of the Hebrew nation are labeled as Jews?
Dear George,
When Jesus made a discourse about his body being a real food and blood a real drink, his followers were scandalized for how can this man give his body and blood as food and drink and quit following Jesus. They thought this man has gone bonkers. Only a few remained. Yet Jesus did not say, “Hey guys, come back! What I am saying is they are only symbols!”.
The Eucharistic miracles, bread and wine turned flesh and blood are proofs of the reality of the consecrated bread and wine as body and blood of Jesus. If it were not so, no miracles of bread turning into flesh and wine turning into blood would have ever occurred because there is no need for a miracle to prove transubstantiation since transubstantiation is not claimed and asserted.
Miracles of transubstantiation is necessary in our generation because FAITH in the words of Jesus on the matter is getting lost to rationalization and intellectualism. Christians need to be reminded. It is apostasy not to believe Jesus that his body is real food and his blood real drink.
Constantino
LOL! That’s right! In John 6:52, when the Jews began to “argue sharply” amongst themselves, asking “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Jesus didn’t back down, didn’t clarify a symbolic reference (as he had in some parables), but rather INSISTED, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
I find it curious that at least some Protestant groups will take quite literally such parts of the Bible as Genesis, but not Jesus’ own words. If God can make the world in 6 days, why can he not turn bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ?
Dear Constantino, Your assertion that Catholic church believes that under certain circumstances non Catholics can also get salvation is not borne by recent experiences.I am unable to make an exact quote but John Paul 2 during a visit to India made an explicit reference to it meaning that catholic church is the only faith that can assure salvation. He made the further point that India is a dark continent as it is not wholly Christian and specifically catholic. It was greeted in disbelief by non catholics Indian Christians and of course by the majority of Indians who are Hindu by faith. I will try to get a copy of his sermon if available so that you may make your own judgement. I continue to believe that there is nothing special about being a catholic. It is a matter of personal conviction.
Regards
George.
Dear George,
Regarding John Paul II, I feel he must’ve been misquoted in India. He promoted building interreligious bridges, not condemning people! He wished, first and foremost, for people to be a People of God, not necessarily memebers of the Catholic Church. In 1986 and in 2002 John Paul II held interfaith prayers in Assisi, where Protestant, Orthodox, even Jews and Muslims leaders came together to pray. You wouldn’t pray with someone you considered a heretic, no? As one Jesuit priest said, “It wouldn’t make a lot of sense to pray together when you don’t believe in the same God.”
In terms of Catholic doctrine, the only ones the Church states with certainty that will be damned are those who KNOW there is salvation within the Church and willingly abandon it. However, “those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.” (From “Lumen Gentium”, Vatican Council II)
Specifically regarding non-Catholic Christians, “…it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ… It follows that the separated Churches and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.” (“Unitatis Redintegratio,” VC II)
Finally, the 2000 declaration “Dominus Iesus” of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith states that “…for those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit…”
We do believe that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus founded and left on Earth -the only one with an uninterrupted apostolic succession dating back to Peter; the one that through divine inspiration codified the Bible in the 3rd century. But God wishes “all men” to be saved (not that all will, but this is His desire), and so through Grace may find ways for all righteous Christians, even perhaps non-Christians, to be saved. “…He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.” (Heb 11:6) Remember the story of Cornelius in Acts 10, where this righteous Roman Centurion received the Holy Spirit, to which Peter exclaimed “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear Him and do what is right.”
Looks like people need to study the book of Romans.
“Faith comes by *hearing*, and by *hearing* the Word of God.” Rom 10:17
I already have.
Jehovah’s Witnesses? Heresy.
No, no! Don’t be to quick to judge. There is time when I admire Jehovah’s Witnesses for their firm believe and take scripture on the face value, but that when the problem also occur. When the scripture is taken as what it is but only on one’s own preference and disregarding the least popular terms which may only occur once in some space of the Bible, then the believe becomes somewhat incomplete.
One thing that I know, there’s no passage in the Bible stating about Mary Jesus Christ’s mother dead, and as a Catholic we believe that She was taken to heaven (see Book of Revelation) as Eli was. And in praying, I am a sinner not worthy asking anything to Jesus, not to mention to Father, least I’ve done everything exactly what He asks, have we? Often times I ask my friends to pray for me and for the saints and the holy ghosts to deliver my prays onto His presence since they are so much worthy than I am. One thing I dare to ask Him directly is in “Lord’s Prayer”.
This thread, I have to admit, somewhat disturbing my faith, but then again, I remember that it is brought to my presence for me to learn and strengthen my faith, to soften my stubbornness, bogged down my pride in faith; so I can become as a child in His presence.
As for my closing, I would like to remind everyone of these passages:
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by his fruit. (Matthew 12:33)
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. (Matthew 5:5)
Dear Albanus
Ouch!
1. Jehovah’s Witnesses are in a cult, IMHO.
2. Don’t slap God in the face by saying you are not worthy. Jesus died to make us worthy. Paul calls us “more than conquerors”. True believers are the living saints and they are all equally worthy. You don’t need anyone to intercede on your behalf. That’s why the veil was split asunder as the KJV tritely has it.
3. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort you, He cannot refuse!
4. Stop repeating the “Lord’s Prayer”. Jesus said to “pray *like* this” not to make “Vain repetition like the heathen do.” Just stop that!
5. I don’t understand the relevance of Matt 12:33 here.
6. The word in the Greek for meek also means patient and teachable. You don’t have to be a worm to to inherit the earth! Jesus said “Be as gentle as doves but as wise as serpents.” Seems to me, by staying on this thread, you are becoming teachable. Praise God.
Chris
Don’t have me wrong here. I have had a long and intense sharing on this thinking model of mine (being meek and not worthy in His presence) with some faithful friends from higher/longer religious teaching, one thing that I, and every Christians, in fact all human being, should avoid is what so called “spiritual pride.” These following passages explain this well:
We have not chosen God, He has chosen us (John 15:16). It is God Who wills in us to do His good pleasure (Phillipians 2:13). It is God Who gives to every man his measure of faith (Romans 12:3). It is God Who orders the thoughts of a righteous man (Proverbs 16:3). The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord (Psalm 37:23). The Holy Spirit gives gifts to men as He chooses (I Corinthians 12:11). God has mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy (Romans 9:15).
Searching for them in the internet and without any hassle at all find them in one place. Thanks God. :)
http://www.ghaone.org/teachings/spiritual_pride.htm
You see, I am not worthy since every second of my life spends fully in His grace. Dare I to ask more?
I do pray, but not for my own sake for we are all have being saved in His salvation and have a divine role model to follow–have we become a good follower?
And ‘Lord’s Pray’ is the perfect pray to cover all my personal/spiritual needs. I know very well what’s the different between just saying the words to, mean it to say the words.
While for Matthew 12:33 relevance here; what this thread has made us the reader, either we’re become more faithful (good fruit) or more lost (bad fruit). This covers not just this thread but anything we’ve encountered during our daily actions–another reminder.
Now, for another reminder;
Galatians 5:16-26
… in conjunction with…
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. (Matthew 26:41)
Hi Albanus
You:
“avoid spiritual pride”
“I am not worthy”
This does not sound like the mind of a conqueror, more like someone crawling in. Do you really think God made us that we should crawl before him?
___
Do you think Anne Rice was being faithful (good fruit) by her action or you think she lost it (bad fruit) at that point?
Chris
Well, I am sorry if this would sound harsh and attacking, and correct me if I am wrong, but what I see, whatever things I say you will use them to turn them against me since in your opinion (it seems), is better to take pride and stomp down those which are not in the ideal image of Jesus Christ’s follower ‘as you prefer’, instead of self denial, you would put yourself first and ask other to serve your will. Have you really heard what you are sound like recently in this forum? Almost exactly like the leaders of this world.
And if you wonder, whether I really hear and contemplate on what you’re saying, I do. What I need to say, I am in ongoing progress of crucifix my flesh and living in spirit, taking low of myself before Him for I am full of earthly will. I’m still not worthy as long as I’m in flesh and still fall with the lust of flesh—not even near perfection. He is perfecting us and we will be perfect in time when we join in His kingdom. But until then, I’m not going to judge myself as yet worthy unless I have done everything in as perfect as our Father is. Matthew 5:48 is my motivation for always trying to be perfect in His way but it’s not in anyway telling me that I have been perfect, thus worthy in His presence. Have we done exactly as what is said in Matthew 19:21 or in James 1:26-27? Therefore, I’m not going to take pride on myself thinking I’m yet worthy (2 Corinthians 12:9 and compare with Colossians 1:8-14) but on the bright side (read all the passages in Philippians 3:12-15) “I am apprehended of Christ Jesus” and have salvation.
I’ll tell you something; I was once like you, full of pride and even on the edge of leaving the Catholic Church, but something stopped me along the way. I pray for guidance and my pray is shortly answered. I am reminded about how many prays have been answered and how I must bow my head low before Him and entrust Him for my life—be as a child before Him, take any lessons are offered before me and scrutinize them in unconditional love frame of mind. In this way, I will live my life as a living example of Jesus’ teachings. Instead of telling others what to do or how to do it, I’ll show to them without saying. This is my understanding for “wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.” (Matthew 10:16 KJV). The passage reads ‘wise’—I speak different language and English is not even a second language in my country but I’m well aware the implication of this word. Whether I failed or succeed, I had given my best from my understanding of unconditional love, and let God do the rest—and may He guide me always.
For Anne Rice, did she also leave her believe in Jesus Christ even after leaving the Catholic Church, and where do you think she gets most, if not all, the resources she needs in studying the living Jesus? She, seems to me, has never even given herself enough chance to grow and be the tree herself—it takes a lifetime, you know (the story of the Saints). She takes much pride on herself as a scholar and does not realize that the pride which is stumbled herself (1 Corinthians 3:19). Her story reminds me so much about St. Augustine and what lesson we can take from his life’s story. May be you also need to read the story of St. Augustine.
Dear Albanus
Thank you for the warning. I will tone down my rhetoric.
I sincerely apologise and I am relieved to see that you have taken my feistiness in good spirit and no harm done.
May God bless you beyond your wildest dreams and imaginations and the Holy Spirit comfort you all the way home. Amen
Chris
Dear Albabus
I think you should differentiate between pride and self-esteem or self-worth.
Chris