In another post, bestselling author Anne Rice told you her story – how, through historical research, she became convinced the facts support a real Jesus who rose from the dead. She explains how and why she left atheism to embrace hope.
Then, in 2010, she left the church. She said:
“For those who care, and I understand if you don’t: Today I quit being a Christian … It’s simply impossible for me to ‘belong’ to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I’ve tried. I’ve failed. I’m an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else.
“My faith in Christ is central to my life. My conversion from a pessimistic atheist lost in a world I didn’t understand, to an optimistic believer in a universe created and sustained by a loving God is crucial to me. But following Christ does not mean following His followers. Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity and always will be, no matter what Christianity is, has been or might become.”
Many have asked my thoughts about Anne Rice’s departure from the Catholic Church. Let me tell you my own story of struggling with quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious church people.
When I was 12, my mom went “bipolar.” Manic depressive with mild schizophrenia.
Except that for a year and a half, nobody knew that’s what was wrong with her. We just knew she was impossible to live with.
The fights, the arguments and contention would start as soon as I got home from school every day and stretch past bedtime.
Our entire family was bedlam for a year and a half.
Mom would swing from being your best friend to your worst enemy at the slightest provocation. I’d come home from school and find she’d tossed boxes of my stuff in the garbage. She’d say embarrassing things to my friends.
She insisted dad wasn’t really her husband. She said he was a man who looked just like Bob and she was sentenced to live with him until the ‘real’ Bob came back. When he came home from work she would hurl accusations at him. My brother and sister and I would complain bitterly to him about how she was treating us.
It was almost impossible to not get sucked into some kind of conflict every day. Home was the most dangerous place a kid could be.
My dad was taking her to doctors and counselors but nobody seemed to be able to arrive at any conclusion. Meanwhile, people watched us with a judgmental eye.
My dad was an associate pastor at a very large church in Nebraska, 2000+ members. Dad started getting heat from his boss, the senior pastor, Mr. G, who didn’t like the fact that one of the pastors’ wives was “out of line.”
Mr. G quoted the scripture that says a pastor should be in control of his family and told dad if he didn’t straighten out mom’s problem, he might have to leave.
Dad pursued answers and eventually got mom to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist diagnosed her with a chemical imbalance and bipolar disorder.
That trip to the psychiatrist was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Psychiatrists and psychologists, in Mr. G’s opinion, were the new high priests of a secular order that would dismiss all human ills as curable illnesses. Psychiatrists didn’t have the courage to call evil by its real names – SIN and DISOBEDIENCE. They existed to give people like my mom an alibi. Mr. G declared Mom insubordinate and rebellious.
Literally on the same day the diagnosis came back, Mr. G and Mr. J, the pastors of our church, visited our house to deliver the news. We all sat in the living room as they announced, “We’ve asked your father to resign from his responsibilities. He’s no longer qualified to be a pastor.”
I listened without much comment. I was 13. My older sister, however, was livid. At 18 she’d formed definite opinions about what had transpired. She started sobbing and retorted angrily to Mr. J: “If people knew what YOUR daughter does when she’s out at night, they’d be forcing you to resign too.”
Mr. J said, “We’re not here to talk about me or my family today, Robin. We’re here to talk about you.”
Earlier that day, dad had been brought before the Board of Elders to hear their final verdict. One by one, they agreed with Mr. G: “Bob, you’re not in control of your family. We’re sorry, you have to step down.” Mr. G demoted dad and announced to 2,000 people the following Sunday that dad had “resigned” so he could “attend to problems with Betty and the family.”
The next months were painful indeed. Few knew the real story. Some gathered around us. Most only knew something disgraceful had happened though and kept their distance. We felt like pariahs.
Dad couldn’t hang with his same friends anymore. He wasn’t invited to lunch at work. They shut him out of staff meetings. They hadn’t cut his pay, but he did lose a tax deduction. Less money to go around.
A couple months later I got into a fist fight at school. Came home with two black eyes. Bad report cards and complaints from teachers. All this added to the mounting case against dad.
He would come home from work every night and sit on the couch and sob. Mom told him it was all his fault for being such a cruel tyrant.
Dad followed through with the psychiatrist’s advice to get her on a prescription drug. Literally within a few days, mom transformed from defiant and combative to quiet and cooperative. The bizarre behavior stopped completely. Not only that, she went from being angry and defensive to feeling deep remorse about her erratic behavior.
Soon it became clear that Mr. G torpedoed dad simply because mom had a medical problem – a chemical imbalance – and that mom’s behavior wasn’t “sin” or “rebellion.” It was a well-understood mental illness. She couldn’t help herself.
Dad was hurt and humiliated and felt abandoned. He desperately wanted to bail. A lot of people told him he should quit his job, especially our relatives who understood the scope of the situation.
Dad thought about pulling up stakes, moving elsewhere. He decided to stick it out. To argue his case and vindicate himself.
Few men had the balls to stand up to Mr. G, but dad did. As mom’s condition improved, he said, “Mr. G, you made a wrong judgment and you need to apologize to my wife.”
Furthermore dad made Mr. G write her a letter of reconciliation, because by this time mom had become terrified of Mr. G. He had, after all, the ability to singlehandedly destroy dad’s career.
Nine months after dad had been demoted, he was reinstated.
Two weeks later dad was diagnosed with cancer.
Had dad cut and run, he would’ve been in a newcomer in some new environment, maybe even starting over in a brand new city, surrounded by strangers.
But since he’d stuck it out and vindicated himself, we were surrounded by a faith community that lent us help with dinners and financial support and prayers and encouragement.
Dad had major surgery. He was cancer free for a year and a half, then it came back. Treatments were unsuccessful, and as it became clear that he wasn’t going to make it, Mr. G secretly mailed a letter to everyone else at church. He explained how this summer might be Bob’s last and it would be really nice to raise some money, so Bob can take a trip to the West Coast.
$10,000 came in. In 1986 that was enough to not only take dad to California, a place he’d always longed to visit, but it was enough to get all of us to Alaska and Hawaii too. Dad experienced a 5 week “last hurrah” with his wife and kids that July.
That October, he died. I was 17.
I can’t tell you how many things I’ve wanted to quit, and didn’t, because dad wouldn’t throw in the towel and walk away from a bunch of quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous people.
And say what you want about ’em, when you’re in the oncology ward with terminal cancer, those are the same people that will probably be with you as you pass from here to the other side.
They will still have their faults and you will have yours, but… blood is thicker than water.
A faith community can become just as close and even closer than your biological family. It’s why they can hurt you so easily.
But there’s no such thing as a real community, or even a real relationship, that isn’t vulnerable. Painfully so sometimes. During our special vacation to California, dad told me that getting rejected and blamed for a mess he had no control of had been worse than dying of cancer was now.
Peter asked Jesus, how many times should I forgive my brother? Seven times?
Jesus said, “Seventy times seven. That’s how many times you should forgive.”
What do you forgive people for, anyway??
For being quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous. For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14-15.
After the potluck dinners have ended and people start throwing chairs at each other, it’s so easy to pull the plug and run. So many marriages don’t work out, it’s so easy to just live with someone and see how things turn out.
It IS easier.
It’s easier at first.
But when a series of relationships fail, they rip your heart to shreds just as much whether you were married or not. It just seemed like not ‘committing’ yourself lessened the risk. If your “common law wife” leaves you after 10 years, how is that any less painful than if your legally married wife leaves you? Just because it’s ‘unofficial’ doesn’t make it less perilous.
I’ve had to make multiple passes of forgiveness about Mr. G. A few years later when more fiascoes erupted, I had to let go again.
A few years after that, it occurred to me that my dad might not have even gotten cancer in the first place had he not endured two years in such a toxic, unsupportive, humiliating environment. That’s speculation, but still I had even more forgiveness I had to do.
A year ago I realized I needed to confront yet another layer of unforgiveness within myself. I had made a conscious choice to let go of the past, when I suddenly felt God saying to me, “The Father’s Heart is going to be poured out over Mr. G and his church.”
The day you forgive anther person is the day new blessings get released into their life. The day you forgive another person is the day you stop being a victim of whatever they did to you.
Dear Anne Rice, I greatly esteem your writing and your scholarship. I commend you for your adroit case for the historical Jesus. I appeal to you as a brother and member of the imperfect body of Christ, that to exit and publicly denounce them is to embrace quarreling… hostility… and public disputes.
From an individual view it’s all justified. But isolation makes islands of all of us. When we who were mistreated gather together in opposition to those who did us wrong, we inevitably become like those whom we judge.
A few years ago I visited an old college buddy in Washington DC. He was an exquisitely smart, seminary educated man who’d been a pastor in a Protestant evangelical church. He’d recently converted from Protestant to Eastern Orthodox.
Eastern Orthodox??? Most Americans don’t even know what that is.
I was dying to hear his explanation. “I don’t know what Peter’s going to tell me, but it’s sure gonna be interesting.”
I wasn’t disappointed. We sat up late three nights in a row exploring his decision. I don’t have time for the whole story now, but one of the points he made was this: “Protestants have ‘splitting off’ in their very DNA. As soon as they disagree, they leave First Baptist Church to go start Second Baptist Church. Then some of those people split off and form Third Baptist Church and on and on it goes.
“Catholics and Orthodox people don’t automatically do that. They prize unity. I have a bishop over me and he’s like a father to me and my wife. We live in community and in covenant together. He’s responsible to look out for us and we choose to be in a trusting mutual relationship.”
Whether you’re Protestant or Catholic or Orthodox… or if you’re on the outside looking in… I want to encourage you: living the nomad life is less demanding in the short term but lonelier in the long term.
As you make forgiveness a way of life, when you choose to live in community, you earn a kind of compound interest of grace. Months or years do not always reveal the fruit of that. It grows evident over decades. Community is the only place where you truly learn to forgive and learn to love.
The only way we exorcise our demons – both figuratively and literally – is in committed relationships with other people. Those around us are mirrors. They show us our faults, and we theirs. As we bathe those faults in mercy and forgiveness we become the people we aspire to be.
Perry Marshall
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Responding to Pramod K who said, Let’s forgive murderers,rapists,child molesters,theives,and drug pushers MUST be
forgiven within us; but we should go up to point of even sentencing these NON-humans to death of NEED BE so that HUMAN remain to exist.
The world is going crazy with lawlessness and rebellion over unfair laws. Biblical law executed murderers and rapists. As Christians, we should forgive and trust God when He says, Vengeance is Mine–I will repay.” But government has the responsibility to execute justice and our godless laws let people walk free with clever lawyers or our on parole soon because of overcrowded prisons (that tax-payers must bear the burden of) has little resemblance to God’s wise laws.
Richard Ruhling
I agree with you Richard. As a retired Law Enforcement Officer, I have seen the worst of the worst. I have seen legislation which almost pins a medal on criminal behavior.
The victim is nothing in our society while the perpetrator is
glorified by the ACLU, Human Rights groups, Etc. We enen defend foreign terrorists under our Constitution. I seriously
do not believe that our foundling fathers envisioned our Constitution having world wide jurisdiction. If all this applied to Roman Justice, Jesus Christ would not have been Crucified. He died as the Father planned, to save us.
dear Richard, OBVEUS- FORGIVENES- frees the forgiver-
NOT THE-forgiven who MUST still PAY- for his or her acctions , the penaty for sin is death- thats DEATH. NOT eaternal torment in hell,…
fear HIM who can destroy (BOTH) body and soul in hell…
problem, killing them -FREES THEM from thiS PHYSICAL PLANE- TO WHERe dos eny one know?…. love rex…
Responding to Helen Gordon who wrote: There are many paths to
wisdom and to a divine presence that embraces the best of all religions. One of those paths is the right one for you.
Christ said, “I am the way, the truth, the life…” He did not say there are many ways. Sometimes God finds us in one of our many ways, but we would do well to study His word rather than the chaff of man’s utterance which is like white flour compared to whole wheat, and we end up with a deficiency.
If we are sincere and want to know truth and follow it, we can ask for His Spirit to guide us and we may take a zig zag course, but can know Him whom to know is life eternal.
Jesus had to endure the quarrelsome, hostile, and disputatious disciples. Jesus dealt with their spiritual competitiveness and is an example for us. So, when the Master asks us to love and serve one an other, He is giving us advice to keep us above the fray. He never said it would be easy…
It’s funny, the word “Christianity” isn’t even in the bible. There is no way to start on this topic really in one post because of the complexity. The only simple advice I would have for Anne Rice is to not compare God’s love with the Church’s love. Don’t expect things from the Church, that you would from God. They are not one in the same, and that approach will only lead to dissapointment. To have a nice refreshing new start, I would read only the RED print in the bible. Go into the world and try to follow the example that it portrays. Then draw conclusions of being a “Christian” on a personal level with God.
Just from sifting through the posts, you can see the exact reason for Anne leaving the church.
Great blog Perry
Hi Perry,
I have mentally tripped over your church rant several times and have been strongly inclined to answer your consternation.
1. Religion is a very personal thing and should be left as such. Your mother did not deserve to be used by her church or any church.
2. Some Churches are not always the forgiving or nuturing places I feel that they should be. In some of churches I have attended through my life, socialization seemed to take first place followed only then by the sanctity and spiritual calmness I crave to find in a church.
That said some of the most impressive people I have met I’ve met in church.
I think if there is a perfect church we have not found it because there are many levels of support, sympathy and concern that a person needs to feel in church. Church is only one place to find those things. It works for some and not for others. Every church tries to answer the spiritual needs their members.
I have felt for a long time that different churches fill the requirements of different groups of people. In our family our daughter-in-law needed the word of God set down in specific words so she could follow “the rules”. She had had a rough childhood with an alcoholic father. Now her religion is much more flexible.
I know that it is more fun to criticize those who do not do things our way, but from a young child I believed that our loving God did not judge people for their beliefs but much more by the love and caring in their hearts. I undertand the place where you are coming from but think in your heart “Is this the only way?” Or is GOd a one way God?
Take Care and Remember God is a Proud and Loving Father not a God who created and then found fault in his creation. He cannot be both.
bevfletcher@comcast.net
Beverly Fletcher
So where is JESUS in all of this? It is all about Him.
Sis Beverly you wrote, “I have felt for a long time that different churches fill the requirements of different groups of people.”
Might i say to you that all of our diffences are CARNAL, FLESHLY, and NATURAL by default….Due to the ORIGINAL SIN.
The WORD tells us of UNITY in SPIRIT…AGAPE LOVE…Hence, the ability to love our enemies ONLY comes with following the FIRST and GREATEST Commandment of JESUS.
If you have seen Me, you have seen the FATHER…
So, yes, ABBA Father “created and then found (a correctable) fault in his creation.”
BECAUSE MAN DISOBEYED HIM…
You posted “In our family our daughter-in-law needed the word of God set down in specific words so she could follow “the rules”. She had had a rough childhood with an alcoholic father. Now her religion is much more flexible.”
Flexible??? What does this “really” mean?
Isn’t it AWESOME how the entire Old Covenant was about “the rules”,,, but yet,,, JESUS changed everything in the New Covenant, for He came to fulfill the Law.
He PROVED that the flesh could “repent” from its DNA shortcommings, and walk in Spirit, even while breathing oxygen with blood flowing in the veins…
GOD loves us SOOOOOOOO MUCH that HE desired restoration with HIS CREATION and HIS RELATIONSHIP with man,,, that HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON….
We as carnal creatures will do whatever necessary to survive, and demand attention and control of our “own” design….It is NO GOOD,,, for the FLESH opposes SPIRIT.
The stages are as such:
Born from the human womb. – ye must be born twice.
Physical and mental growth. – raise a child up in HIS way.
“RULES”- spare the rod spoil the child.
Acknowledgement. – of free will and the sinful nature of man.
REPENTANCE – turning away from the gimmics of this World.
John 3:16 – OBEDIENCE of Baptism, the indwelling of HIS HOLY SPIRIT…Dormant (in most cases)- Yet, HIS MERCY and GRACE IS SUFFICIENT!!! Thank you, JESUS!
The ROMANS Road- Process of Sanctification.
Accepting in FAITH the Gifts of His Spirit- Ye shall receive POWER!
PUTTING JESUS FIRST!!! ALL YOUR HEART, ALL YOUR MIND, ALL YOUR SOUL!!!
Then,,, we KNOWLINGLY are Born again from Above in His Spirit.
The bi-directional relationship is within our heart.
We then understand the VALUE in crucifying our OWN flesh daily just as our LOVING Saviour did.
Continual repentance for known and UNknown sin…Constant rejection of the World’s temptations…Through discernment.
YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN….Only through Jesus Christ.
Then, what’s the church the Bible is talking about?
I know it should be one, so which one?
The first meaning that Catholics attach to the expression “Body of Christ” is the Catholic Church- Wiki
ACTUALLY Peter was given the title of The Rock by Jesus, yet, it was the Day of Pentecost that CHANGED the World forever.
A Spiritual awakening…The tearing of the Temple Curtian on Calvary!!!
1 Corinthians 12:12 ~ Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one SPIRIT so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one SPIRIT to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
UNITY in HIS SPIRIT.
Agape’ Love…Only comes from above…
JESUS is the Way, the Truth, the Life…
Ohhh, how I love JESUS,,, ohhhh, how i love Jeeeesus, ohhh, how i LOVE JESUS,,,, because he FIRST loved US!!!!
Only through the indwelling of His Promised Gift of His Holy Spirit do we discern and discover TRUTH…
We were speaking of the natural DMT released by the Pineal Gland, and the influence of both FAITH and the current World State of affairs…EMF, pollution, magnetism, radiowaves,,, the entire spectrum is polluted by man’s flaw.
Anything or anyone who “induces” greater “wisdom” or “knowledge” or “comfort” from synthesized chemicals are only chasing their tail,,, for ONLY the TRULY BORN AGAIN can “see” with a greater understanding in TRUTH…Everyone else is attempting to circumvent the Will of the Father, and shall be refused, for HE is the DOOR.
The devil has manipulated the Earth into a melting pot of addictions, by tempting and teasing the flesh with everything is desires by nature’s default…THE DNA CODE….
Hence, WE MUST BE BORN AGAIN, in order of the WILL OF THE FATHER, to covercome the dissention and opposing nature of the carnal being.
JESUS is the answer…ONLY when we TRULY put HIM ABOVE everyone and everything else of this World.
Greater is He that is in US than he who is in the World.
His sheep know the sound of His voice…How is this?
Thank You JESUS!
Michael Johnson
Too much Catholic vs Protestant discussion here. Neither teach “the faith once delivered”. All of them have too much paganism blended into the Word of God. If you are in either you are in apostasy. I suggest all read “The Two Babylons” by Alexander Hislop for a little historical background to the true facts concerning these apostate movements.
Lee: I have read “Two Babylons” but fail to see how being ‘Protestant’ makes one apostate. Perhaps you could explain?
I am very impressed with Anne’s words: “It’s simply impossible for me to ‘belong’ to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I’ve tried. I’ve failed. I’m an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else.”
I too tried, for 25 years, and I have failed. I too am now an outsider and have been for 5 years. I was cast out, demonized and ostricized by my church family for questioning and not being “like-minded”. It was astounding to witness my brothers and sisters in the Lord, my extended family, my pastors, and those with like opinions, to gather together with such force to make a relentless and concerted effort to cast me out of their midst. They went so far as to pull my own family apart, convincing my wife of 23 years to divorce me! In their minds, “Be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers” was all the justification they needed to totally destroy what my wife and I worked so hard for and for so long.
Jesus Christ is and always has been central to my spiritual faith and I have put considerable effort into studying the Bible, maybe that was my downfall. Because I’m not convinced in my own mind about certain things believed or practiced by this particular group, does not make me an unbeliever.
Yeah, I can’t do this either. Christianity is the most divided “cause” on this planet. It’s impossible for me to ‘belong’. I cannot, in good conscience, stand with, or join into a group with so many prejudices against society. To ‘belong”, I have to fit in nicely, hating what they hate, and practicing what is practiced, whether I believe it or not.
How does “forgiveness” fit into all this? I forgive them for the sins against me, for my lonliness, and for all the destruction I have dealt with these past 5 years. I was crucified for my personal, Christ centered beliefs. Contrary to what you might think, it brings little comfort to me. Like Christ, I forgive them because they don’t know what they are doing. I forgive their blindness and ignorance.
But there comes a time when one has to walk away. Forgiven, yes. But I no longer try to identify myself with this mess simply to please the crowd.
I can’t.
I have failed.
If I didn’t KNOW THAT I KNOW that Jesus exists, the rants on this site would be one more reason to turn my back on Christianity. I’ve been physically & sexually abused as a child, raped as an adult, had one child pass away (SIDS), one daughter had her first breast tumor at the age of 12, had a stillborn who would have been born with congenital anomalies, had two autistic children, had my home burned down twice (once on Christmas day by youngsters who were out drinking cause their parents were out drinking, another time by one of my children), lost both my parents when they were young, my brother when he was 29, and my sister recently in a fire (and these are only a portion of life’s curve balls cast my way). In fact, my youngest daughter has a syndrome so rare that only 300 people in this world are know to have it. I am just home from heart surgery at the age of 58. Well meaning Christians have asked me if they can help me get right with the Lord so these things won’t keep happening! Many times in different situations (churches, Bible studies, Woman’s groups, counseling with pastors) this has occurred. Believe me please, that is only one little faux paux committed on the part of the ‘good’ people of God towards me while I was desperately trying to walk and breath each and every day while I took care of business by myself (oh yes, my husband left because our life was too hard). I was offered more kind words and actions by nonChristians, which is very sad. I truly have forgiven, we all are human after all. I certainly have done my fair share of hurtful things. I hope for forgiveness. Psalms 121: I lift up my eyes to the hills… and 1Co 10:13: No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. These have been my meditations. All the fervor, all the intelligence, all the doctrine, all the giftings, all the knowledge of the Bible will do nothing for us if we followers of Christ cannot ‘simply’ keep our eyes on Christ and the most important part of His message – which He did spell out, loud and clear. May God open our eyes to His message and give us the speed of ‘ninjas’ to dispel His enemies’ transparent distractions. {;^D
Those who find the “30,000” Christian denominations hard to take should realize that most of these denominations flourish in free societies. Which would you rather live among, miriad denominations, or in a society where to even change one’s religion is a capital offence? Multiple denominations and Churches is a consequence of freedom of religion, speech and association.
In regards to Ms. Rice, fellowship and the assembling together of members of the body of Christ is a fundamental aspect of the Christian faith. To be a Christian and not be part of a fellowship of believers is, in my view, foreign to all that the N.T. teaches.
With all due respect to Ms. Rice, one must be extremely righteous if all of one’s fellow travellers can be described as …”this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group”. One may also need to do what the apostle Peter suggests (2 Peter 1: 5-7) and add some positive qualities to their faith.
The one that springs quickly to mind in Ms. Rice’s case is humility.
Dear fellow brother’s and sisters: I want to give you all the advise that ma Earhly Father and Mother raised us up:
There is three words if one is not inplase or left out then your relationship with OUR Father, Dad, Mother, Brother’s Sisters, friends and family dont have something to hold it together: It is LOVE, TRUST and RESPECT.
Think about it it? If you Love some-one or Trust each other and have most of all Respect each other then you won’t grow to what our heavently FATHER want us to be! If you think clearly about my mesage it goes hand in hand in anything you think (thoughts), do (act), respect (anny hunman on earth that is greated by GOD. Then people will go back and think about themself what will ou FATHER think about what I just did, do or say.
Love you all!
Elsa Roux – Centurion – South Africa.
I hope to hear from you or anny christian friend
May GOD be with you all in time of need and also every day.
Elsa, you are so wise! If only to have one of you on the left of me and another of you on the right of me in any church, and I might show up every week.
Major Revelations {continued}…
… that any treatment can change a homosexual person’sdeep-seated sexual feelings for others of the same sex”.
A pamphlet by the American Psychological Association states” Scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy works….It can do more harm than good.”
Conversion Therapy “Success” Rates
Many ex-gay ministries do not claim specific success rates. Afew estimate that 30 to 50% of their clients make a transition from homosexual to heterosexual orientation. But data on conversion rates should be considered suspect, because: many of the groups do not perform actual studies many of studies that are conducted are short term.many of their clients continue to have exclusively homosexual feelings but, for religious reasons, choose to remain celibate. many of their clients are bisexuals who make a decision to restrict their sexual partner(s) to members of the opposite sex
Some studies shed light on the meanings of conversion rates:
Two outside psychiatrists, were allowed to interview members of Exodus International in 1978. Of the ministry’s 800 membe at the time, 30 were picked by the ministry staff as having changed from exclusively homosexual to exclusively heterosexual in orientation.The researchers interviewed the 30 and determined that only 11 had really been largely “cured” of their homosexual orientation. Eight of the 11 still reported homosexual dreams,fantasies and/or impulses.
Masters and Johnson claimed an impressive conversion rate of 50 to 60% which was maintained for 5 years after treatment.But there were a number of unusual factors in this study:
the conversion rate refers to behavior, not orientation or feelings
the 67 clients were not randomly selected; they had to be highly motivated to change their behavior. all subjects had to have a partner of the opposite gender with whom to attempt heterosexual sex during the program
40 of the clients were already married to persons of the opposite sex
all clients were given a test to determine their sexual orientation,ranging from 0 (purely heterosexual) to 6 (exclusively homosexual).Only five of the subjects (7%) were given the latter classification.Presumably there were no “0’s” in the study. This means that 93% of the subjects were bisexual. 55 (82%) were rated 2,3 or 4 and were more or less equally attracted to men and women.the client’s own definition of success was used to determine how many subjects changed behavior. Some of the clients had very limited objectives .
This study basically concluded that many bisexuals are capable of confining their sexual activity to members of the opposite sex..A person is NOT born gay:this is LEARNED behavior,thus it can be Unlearned!
References:
Exodus International of San Rafael, CA, has a “ChristianResources about Homosexuality and AIDS” page with articleson homosexuality from a conservative Christian perspective, abook list, lists of organizations, list of local chapters of ExodusInternational and Homosexuals Anonymous. See: http://www.messiah.edu/hpages/facstaff/chase/h/index.htm
Elizabeth Gilbert, “Queer and Loathing”,Spin Magazine, 1996-JUN (a profoundly sad article describing anExodus International convention)
Masters and Johnson, “Homosexuality in Perspective”,1979
Lecture given by Bob Knight, Director of Cultural Studiesfor the Family Research Council, before the NationalPress Club, 1996-OCT-9
Supporting the Archangel Michael’s Manhood-{the glorified Jesus Christ},the greatest pressure,of course,is put on the Replacements to complete the number of the Joint Heirs at this very late date-Romans 11:17-36.Of course ,out of bitter resentment for being rejected as Peter’s replacement,the DEMON GABRIEL is waging a viscious attack on the Remnant,by `hitting below the belt’-PUN intended! {Of interest also,because of the excess of women,theocratic concubinage may be institued to increase the shortage of males!}
Our “Wake Up Call” -Final Judgement of this System of Things: Divine judgement is presently upon Christendom;{Daniel 5:25-28} we’re now `being weighed in the balance ‘.{We’re in the Low Plain of Jehoshaphat-Joel:3}…Christ’s judgement at the Temple is well nearing fruition-1 Peter 4:17,18 Gabriel’s being a Demon prince since about 1325 C.E.is yet being revealed by the Faithful and Discreet Slave.{Hab.2:3}.As Revelation says that during this time of the end..the Dragon gives the wild Beast its throne and great authority. Though its now “hip” to be ‘street wise’,let’s avoid worldly wisdom{1 Corinth 3:18-20}.For all we need to survive into the millenium is revealed from New Jerusalem!{Matthew 11:27,28 and Luke :21}
Update leading to the FINAL CONFLICT:
Soon after J. F.{“judge”-also on of the Elect} Rutherford’s death in 1942,the underworld seeped in to corrupt and contaminate theocracy;Through a Mob controlled banking system.The faithful and discreet slave should have exposed Gabriel’s witchcraft,financially, by the late 1950’s{ironically, this was a time of great religious revivalism}.In this respect,there are several books and made into movies whose themes reveal Gabriel’s insidious machinations…e.g.”One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest”{specifically the inmate Billy}, the Manchurian Candidate{the !pathetically programmed Raymond Shaw,and treating a severe aberration-Norman Bates-in Psycho!!-these aforementioned films expose and analyze the devastating effects of mother FIXATION and PROGRAMMING into a pitiful,predictable,`petunia’.The 1948 movie “Angel on My Shoulder”(there’s also a recent remake),is an excellent parody on divine protection and satan’s efforts to thwart God’s plan by forcing integration.Also the play “Angels in America” is certainly a commentary on the supernatural. Finally, the TV drama-“Touched by an Angel”-is a good reminder of the unseen superhuman forces that intervene to our benefit or detriment.{An asides:perhaps if Gabriel had been exposed during the Reformation;Babylon the Great may have been destroyed}.Of course, the Sovereign Lord Jehovah’s timetable dictated that we had to wait until the Gentile Times had ended and the First Resurrection(Spring 1918);the Grand Theocracy!.
In conjunction,the origins of the South’s traditions and spirit-the demon prince of Egypt- came from medieval sorcery and witchcraft-which Gabriel has exerted much influence over.As the magic practicing priests of Egypt{during the 10 Plagues}-Jannes and Jambres(2 Timothy 3:8)exclaimed…”It is the finger of God”.. Exodus:8:19.Divine intervention should have been acknowledged during these final stages of Armageddon! Especially at this late date as counselled at Jude 3,4;..”we must put up a hard fight for the faith”… to maintain an approved relationship to Jehovah.Imitation of Enoch,just prior to the Noachian Flood{Jude 15},we must guard our clean moral standing -as Jehovah God is Cleansing the Sanctuary and Bringing it into the RIGHT condition ,restoring and rebuilding the Walls of Jerusalem with holy spirit and in company with the faithful angels- withstanding Gog of Magog’s{satan} attack Ezekiel 38:18-23.We must keep our senses and be watchful-Ephesians5:15-17,guarding our thinking ability-make sure of the more important things -Phil 1:10-keeping our priorities straight,as we behold the restoring and rebuilding the `walls of Jerusalem’.In this respect,the Lord Jehovah has erected…a wall of fire all around us”..Spiritual Israel {Zech 2:5}.This barrier of protection is in harmony with God’s spiritual lightning and arrows that he employs to protect his INHERITANCE{2 Sam 22:15}.This retributive response commensurates God’s impatiallity{2 Thess 1:6-10}.The Lord Jehovah remembers that us mortals are frail..{Psalms 103:14}.Unlike spirit creatures,we cannot live without food, water,or oxygen!
As Matt 5:10-12 and 1 Peter 4:9 convey,we endure the suffering of the present season-soon to be at the 1335 days-Happiness at the Santuary-Daniel 12:8; as compared to the ‘glory that’s to be revealed in us’,the wicked Seraphim make things extremely difficult for the Remnant,especially, and Great Crowd,morally.
As the Sanctuary is cleansed and put into the right condition-restoring and rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem (Isaiah 45:13);we’re enduring intense spiritual warfare-Ephesians 6:12,13;at final inspection we will indeed know who really then are the faithful endurers{Malachi 3:18 }.We await with heightened anticipation the final part of Armageddon-the visible destruction of this wicked system of things,then the binding and abyssing of satan.Let’s heed the warning at 1 Corinthians 10:6-13!- Reject self reliance(Psalms85:8)
So, “last first,first last”.Yes some of the original chosen ones who had fallen away may be restored due to undeserved kindness-grafted back in{Romans 11:23}.Us replacements must `live in fear’-avoiding overconfidence! Nevertheless,Jehovah God will give us the victory as we “safeguard our hearts”,remaining faithful,obedient,and loyal Romans 8:37-39.As Rev 12:12 mentions,furious for having a “short time ” to mislead,the Devil smears the Remnant-invents provocation…”accuses Christs’ brothers night and day before God”.We’re looking forward to final vindication ,then exoneration!
The Apostle Paul ended his earthly course faithfully.He defended divinely sanctioned CELEBACY [strictly abstinence]-1 Corinth 7:29-38,though he loved many women before and after his conversion {.e.g.Dorcas,Priscilla,Lois and Eunice}-he was not a misogynist-as some claim.Since he labored in EXCESS of them all(the other apostles};Paul’s authority is beyond question:he wrote 15 of the 27 NT Epistles Also Christ himself defended celibacy at Matthew 19:12;and so did the Lord God Jehovah,himself at Isaiah 56:4,5.In opposition,Gabriel infers,if not accuses APPROVED single servants of God of being homosexual,and of the worst kind.With unsubstantiated evidence,{and assistance from the wicked seraphs} the demon plants suspicion and mistrust through slights nuances, and inuendo-even suggesting that Christ was gay! His love was AGAPE ,not EROS.That is why there is no forced celibacy in the True Christian arrangement[forced is a mark of apostasy 1 Timothy 4:3.So if one does not have the gift,or is without self-control,one should marry{1 Corinth 7:9} By the same token,there’s to be NO FORCED MARRIAGES!-can lead to infidelity of the worst kind! ..e.g high divorce rate!
The last demon prince is just about defeated,cleverly disguised-the DEMON GABRIEL is shortly to be overthrown by Jesus Christ-releasing us from bondage to the `society’as the Chief Agent of Life’s overwhelming victory over Babylon the Great.-Oedipus complexes in our time period.
Through New Jerusalem,the Begotten Remnant are to be tested to the limit and fully `whitened and refined’-for their citizenship exists in the heavens-Phil 3:20.Avoid the politics of this world; for Christ counselled us at Matt 22:21:we’er obligated to pay our taxes and obey the laws that don’t conflict with God’s law{Acts 5:29}-our allegiance and worship is to God ,alone!
The unnumbered `Great Crowd’-Revelation 7:9,10- are to witness the visible destruction of this wicked old system of things and `sense’ the binding and abyssing of satan and demons too.We must exert ourselves vigorously to get through the narrow door(Matthew 7:13)-ushered into a spiritual OASIS,remaining awake and fully conscious of our spiritual needs.As the `devouring lion ‘is still stalking us {1 Peter 5:8-11},we must remain forever vigilant until their abyssing! Achieving an maintaining divine approval is imperative![2 Corinthians 13:5].In this respect,we must constantly prioritize: Phillipians 1:10
No more “fence straddling”-1 Kings 18:21-or incitng Jehovah God to jealousy-1 Corinth10:21-;ignorance of God’s law is NO excuse! For the Good News has been thoroughly preached `for a witness,worldwide’!!Divine retribution awaits the indifferent,incorrigible and recalcitrant-2 Thessalonians 2:8-10-`for these are days for meting out justice’..Luke 21:22.In this respect,living to a “ripe old age ” is not necessarily indicative of righteousness{Isaiah 65:20}nor do all the good die young! For the 2 groups have existed for some time:2 Peter 2:9,10! We must be firmly on the Sovereign Lord Jehovah’s side,not LUKEWARM(Rev 3:16).Since we’er going through a period of adjustment now ,in appreciation of divine mercy ;let’s not try God’s His patience!{2 Peter 3:9} Don’t Look Back {Luke 17:32}
Of course ,all of us have done things for which to be ashamed-1 Corinthians 6:9,10- “Let he that is without sin cast the first stone!-1 Kings 8:46,Mal3:4. Proverbs 28:15 states..”He that is covering over his transgressions will not succeed,but he that is confessiong and leaving [them] will be shown mercy”.. ;this rule is reiterated at Acts 3:21. Also at John 15th chapter,Christ states that all of the caught “fish”,he cleans after he catches them!We all have “Achilles Heels”! Even the Apostle Paul admitted having flaws(Romans 7:13-24)..Later beseeching God to remove these flaws,Paul is edified by the Lord..…”My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you ;for (my)power is being made perfect in weakness{2 Corinth 12:9}-a lesson in humilty! Heed the lesson given to Peter-[Acts 11:9] So let’s be cautious in our appraisal of others ;for as we judge ,we are judged ourselves! {Romans 2:1} We can be asurred of successful CONVERSION under New Jerusalem.{no ..”returning to mire or rollng in vomit..”}{2 Peter 2:22} .Romans 12:12 tells us to ..rejoice in the HOPE -the Millenial reign of Christ- to avoid relapse! Keep our eyes on the prize of life in the New Order! Through the power of the holy spirit[prayer and study]those of spirit begotten can finish our earthly course faithfully.The other sheep ,of course ,will entertain living throughout eternity in perfect health and happiness in an earthwide PARADISE{Micah 4:1-7}.With so much to learn and accomplish -upbuilding association -hardly a boring existence for lovers of righteousness! …”Eye has not seen and ear has not heard ,neither have there been conceived in the heart of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him.”{1 Corinth 2:9}!!!
After the great falling away since 1958 ,we’re making it back to HAPPY DAYS ,which was a partial foregleam of Christ’s millenial reign; Jehovah God has re-established NEW JERUSALEM’S economy in 1982.An antitypical golden age of Israel(spiritually) is flourishing under the greater Solomon(Jesus Christ)…who has conquered!!! (Rev.17:8,9) We pray for the veil to be lifted from the spiritually blinded,so that the glorious eternal purpose will be realized by appreciative ones.Defend Michael’s motherhood and manhood ,not Gabriel’s.Galations 4:6..the true Holy mother church is the NEW Jerusalem above … and she is FREE!!!
I don’t want to get into any discussion about homosexuality because the last time I commented on the Bibical references to this, I paid a very high price. And there are people of that inclination who have shown me more humanity than those who are supposedly chaste. Just let me say that I want to know nothing of your inclinations. And such things should not be public anyway. I was married twice and those things were between my husband and me only both times. However, there has been no one in my life for eleven years now and since that area was not a problem in either relationship, I did have to ask God to take that from me until and if He wanted me to be with someone else and He did. There have been Catholic nuns (and I am not Catholic; but had a dear friend who was) who have never even been with another sexually at least after they became nuns. This proves that if we love God enough (and we should love Him more than anything else) it’s possible to go through life as a single person without relationships other than platonic. I guess whatever your sexual orientation, it all comes down to do we believe in Him and His ability to “make a way where there seemeth none.”
Whoever you are and whatever your choices, I can not judge you. God is the judge of us all, the only legitimate judge. An ideal church would have the right to point out ANY PUBLIC sin that brought shame or disbelief on the church (at least that’s what I get from Paul’s letters). But the Bible says there is no big sin or little sin and no man (or woman) without sin. We have these little human minds that keep us from knowing the mind of God. But we can depend on the fact that He sees the big picture. I have trusted in Him for many years. May we all continue to. I know that I would not be here otherwise.
But His church is NOT a building or a denomination. It is His body of believers. Even a child can understand this. He has ONE body, not thousands. And Jesus did not appreciate the legalism of His day. How would He think of it today?
I’ve left the so-called “church”,what,4 times now? I’m 55 now.I know I’ll never go back(I’ll never quit the God of the Bible,though).Perry,you’ve convinced me that evolution,via God-created DNA,is the real deal–you and I don’t know how many other experts in various feilds.So:people are descended from primates.Duh.Just look around.All the animal instincts playing out,espacially pack/herd instincts:Go to “church” and watch all the”alpha and bravo males and females” automatically going from alpha male or female lecture to bravo male and female clique small-talk.It’s about the only form of “fellowship” the human primate has ever been able to handle.People are the same everywhere.
Then go to the church that the God of the Bible established through Jesus and Paul:roughly 300yrs of home groups(you’re in a home group arrangement,right,Perry?),fellowship in the gospel;and no Biblical directions,or directions from the early church fathers,to change to a religion of church property,church buildings,pulpits,pews,large corporate-denominations(sects),professional clergy,ordinations “of men and by man”…
Man says the Bible is the Word of God, but the Bible says that Jesus Christ is the Word of God. (I John 1:1) Man says the Bible is the truth, but Jesus said “I am the truth.” (John 14:6) Man says the Bible will lead you to all truth, but the Bible says that the Holy Spirit will lead you to all truth.(John 16:13) Nowhere does the Bible make the claims about itself that are made on its behalf. Th term “Sola Scriptura” itself is extra-Biblical — it comes from St. Augustine, not the Bible. In fact, the word “Bible” appears nowhere in the Bible except on the cover. Where the Scriptures are referred to, the clear reference is to the Jewish Old Testament because…the Bible wasn’t written until the Bible was written, so there’s no way it could refer to itself. It’s an important historical reference, but not to be made an idol of.
A challenge:
1. If Christianity was meant to be a book religion, then why didn’t God see fit to allow a single original manuscript survive?
2. Why didn’t Jesus write the entire New Testament in His own handwriting?
3. What would you do if you suddenly went into an altered state of consciousness, and a being who identified himself as God ordered you to do something that is specifically forbidden in the Scriptures? Most churches would tell you that was a demon — but it’s a good thing the Apostle Peter didn’t see things that way, because he had the courage to obey God over the Scriptures. (Acts 11:5-10)
Please, stop worshiping Bibles and Popes, and get to know Jesus personally. The Bible is not gonna sprout wings and fly anybody into Heaven.
“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.” (John 5:39-40). A WITNESS is, by definition, a second-hand account of an event.
David,
The only thing I know about you is what you’ve written here and I have no idea where else you might go with this.
But taken at face value, you are exactly right in everything that you have said here.
The Bible is written testimony. As you say, a witness. It is the word of God. Jesus is the WORD of God.
And the Holy Spirit is needed to minister to us the spirit of Christ and to teach us the scriptures.
There is a very subtle but grave error that happens when the Bible is elevated to being the 4th member of the Trinity. Actually in practice most protestants treat the Bible as the 3rd member of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit as mostly a non-entity. This is a grave mistake.
When we as individuals and churches begin putting the Holy Spirit in His proper place, amazing things happen. See http://www.coffeehousetheology.com/miracles for an account of some of my own experiences.
I have no denominational agenda. My basic idea is that nobody can understand the Bible until they understand God, and nobody can understand God until they understand love. The best way to understand the Bible is not to keep reading it and re-reading it, but to commit yourself to love at least one person in your life intensely and unconditionally. Then you will understand God’s love for us, and things will start to make sense.
This is the love of God as I know it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgtX3v7Wlf4
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06khEqzGEsc
Mere words can be sterile to express the love of God.
To David Carnes & Perry: It may be that you are treading on thin ice in your criticism of the Bible. Jesus always confirmed the scriptures, saying that though heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle of the law would fail. We have the passage in Psalms saying “The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.” Because I take God’s word (the Bible) at its word and believe that it is pure and preserved in no way implies that I am engaging in idolotrous worship of the Bible. Elevating the Bible in no way diminishes the Holy Spirit. How would we know of the Holy Spirit, His gifts, His Baptisim, His desire to glorify Jesus, had we not the Bible? Perhaps it takes some faith to belive God has preserved His word without providing us with the original manuscripts. He could inscribe them across the sky every morning, but He has chosen a move subtle way. sinecerely, dalelangmade@yahoo.com
I see two characteristics that are common to all idols:
1)An idol is tangible — you can see it, you can touch it — it appeals to the flesh. You can’t see God, but you can see a statue of Baal.
2) You can control an idol. An idol, being made of stone, can’t speak, so its worshipers can attribute anything they want to it — “Baal said for us to attack the Midianites today”- or whatever. The real God is not so easy to control.
Originally, I never wold have suspected that it was possible to make an idol out of the Bible. Even now, I agree that it was generally inspired by men who had genuine experiences with God. I do dispute the idea that the writers of the Bible were nothing more than ventriloquist dummies sitting in God’s lap, or secretaries taking dictation. After all, it’s not so easy to reconcile “Bring the little children unto me” with “I will dash your babies’ heads against rocks”.
Yet somehow, much of the church has managed to make an idol even out of the Bible.
1. The Bible is tangible — you can see it, you can touch it, which is more than you can say about God. I’ve even met believers who use the words “Bible” and “God” interchangeably, as if there were no difference between a book and a person.
2. God is so much easier to control when think you’ve got Him locked inside the Bible. Especially when you don’t acknowledge the difference between text and interpretation. The Catholics see “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” but what they understand is “I Jesus, hereby found the Catholic church and appoint you, Peter, as its first Pope.” The Protestants see “…whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away….But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away” but what they understand is “Soon a book called Revelation will be written, and when it is completed the Canon of a book called the Bible will be complete, and when the last Apostle dies all miracles and prophesies will cease”.
Could it be possible that Jesus lives outside the pages of the Bible? Could it be possible to cultivate a personal relationship with Him, as many of the writers of the Bible did? Or did He just leave us with a book and say “Here, read this. Now bye-bye. See you at the end of the world.”
David: Certainly Jesus lives outside of the Bible and there is much more to Jesus than what the Bible testifies of him. Still, I take exception to what you have written above. You write “…and when the last Apostle dies all miracles and prophesies will cease” as being the interpetation held by Protestants. I am a Pentecostal who is Protestant, the first fellowship I attended was pastored by a Pentecostal Baptist and Pentecostal Lutheran. You may be unaware of Pentecostals, but there are a few million Pentecostal Christians and we all pretty much believe meiracles and propecies have not ceased. And we believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. There are some Pentecostal Catholics, but many Pentecostals consider themselves Protestant.
What we know of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit comes from the Bible. That man perverts, twists and misinterpets the Bible in no way diminishes its authority. We should esteem the Bible for what it is, the word of God. “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable…” (2 Tim 3:16) Above you seem disturbed that God did not allow the original manuscritpts to survive. Who are we to judge God? If He was to preserve anything at least He could have preserved the original 10 Comandments that He wrote out in His own hand. Yet He allowed Moses to break them to pieces when, on coming down from the mount, Moses found the Israelites cavorting naked in front of their new god, a golden calf, fashioned by his own brother. God did not rebuke Moses for smashing an autograph. Try thinking of the Bible as God’s word and maybe it will make some sense. sincerely, dale
I should have said “Baptists”, not “Protestants”, because a variety of Charismatics do indeed believe that miracles have not ceased. I am not a Charismatic, but I agree with them about that because I have experienced them myself. My point is that the Bible is so ambiguous that anyone can use it to prove anything they want (and everybody seems to think that their own interpretation is “clear”). Which convinces me that we need to rely primarily on direct contact with God, rather than relying on second-hand accounts written by men.
About Timothy 3:16: It can’t establish Biblical inerrancy — to use an analogy, if a verse in the Quran said “For all the words of the Quran are given by Allah and are true”, it wouldn’t prove anything. It’s circular reasoning – assuming the truth of a proposition in order to prove it true.
With respect to the lack of original manuscripts, it’s not judging God to infer from the fact that He did not allow them to survive that He must not have intended them to form an infallible canon. The idea that it’s judging God to infer this, relies on the assumption that God DID intend a canon, which is, again, circular reasoning.
I also note that God provided Moses with a new copy of the Ten Commandments when he smashed the first copy.
It would be nice, though, if you could go to Jerusalem and see the original Ten Commandments stone in a museum. Or see a manuscript of the New Testament in Jesus’ own handwriting. Since I am writing in a spirit of true inquiry, however, let me propose a possible explanation — if the original manuscripts had survived, the church might have declared them sacred and outlawed any translations. This might have become a basic principle of the church, and even today, you wouldn’t be able to read the Bible without becoming fluent in ancient Hebrew and Greek, leaving 99% of Christians to rely on a small class of scholars to tell them what the Bible says. Imagine the opportunities for corruption. Perhaps God, foreseeing this possible state of affairs, chose to let the original manuscripts perish.
I know very, very few theologians who would agree with your statement “the Bible is so ambiguous that anyone can use it to prove anything they want”.
I think hacks can do that. People who take scholarship seriously cannot.
Timothy 3:16 never claims inerrancy. It claims inspiration. Not the same thing.
Excellent point.
I wonder, though, if the theologians disagree with each other about what the Bible means? I do believe, though, that unaided reason is not enough to understand — we need help from God. In the end, though, it will all make sense — God will not have us embrace contradictions.
I agree with you about Timothy 3:16. That to me, is another objection to the way it is used.
David: Perhaps we will not be able to agree on the nature of the Bible. I agree with you concerning Bible schoarship. I credit our Bible scholars with rendering Christian faith in the Bible to an all time low. Take the DaVinci Code book/movie. Christians were upset that it promoted a different religion and disparaged both church and doctrine. But the attack against Jesus being God at the begining came straight from Christain Theologins.
You have a good point in that the Bible is interpeted in so many ways. Even the US Constitution has been subject to interpetation. But having something is better than having nothing to base you faith on, which happens when you throw out all authority. We are supposed to have some unity in the faith. Why not include recognitin of the Bible as being God’s inspired and preserved word? But suposing we have 10 diferent doctrines on how salvation works: You have to be submersed in water. You have to be sprinkled with water and dabbed with oil as an infant. You have to go forward at the alter call. You have to speak in tongues. You have to be forordained. You have to work up the Faith on your own power. etc. Does all that confusion necessarily relect badly on the Bible? After all, salvation is a key element of Christianity. Not at all, the Bible is writen in such a manner that where it concerns salvation it is possible for a child to undersatnd it.
To give one example (which predates the ressurection): The thief on the cross asked Jesus to remeber him. Other than that confession of faith the thief did nothing to merit salvation. Jesus said to him “This day you will be with me in paradise.” That someone might say “The only way to get yourself saved in to be nailed to a cross like the thief was” in no way diminishes the lesson the Bible gives us.
One more comment: You say we don’t need to heed 1 Tim 3:16 because Muslims have a similar verse in the Koran. At least Muslims have not thrown out the Koran as Christians have dispensed with the Bible. At one time foolish Christians such as Wycliffe, Huss and Tyndale risked their lives so we could know and have the Bible. At least they did not think it was something as easily dismissed as an idol.
Perry,
I see that Ann has left the RC Church once again or am I getting it wrong? If she has now truly left the RC Church after her reconciliation it is really absurd and shows how even intellectuals get waylaid by the RC Churches’ rigid and inflexible self developed theology. Ideally individuals should be free to choose their faith even within the Christian faith. And that is what a great many people are doing.
Then I read your experience both in your youth and later. I must say that I admire your faith. But more seriously I think most religious organizations are like the RC church. They tend to pass judgement over others. That is what happened to your parents and to some extent you. Jesus never asked ordinary people to judge others for that matter religious heads to judge their congregations. I think that should be the first step towards true faith.
George.
I dont know why u think RC church is developing self-theology.
Now Ur judging Rc church, is nt it? Every independent church makes the claim that it is the only True and Living Church of Jesus Christ on the Earth today.These churchesdeveloping Self Theology for their sake.
JOHN 10:12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and SCATTERS it.
Perry, thank you for this wonderful article. “Coincidentally, I’ve been dealing with the same issues of unforgivness to some Brothers and Sisters at Church. For a long time I have known that what I was thinking and feeling was wrong.
It’s funny, I love the people in my life that show me grace, unconditional love and give me room to grow, but when treating others I don’t want to waste my time and just want to exit the relationship or avoid any time and energy adding to it.
I pray that God would open our hearts and minds and make us realise that the grace that he shows us, should be shared with others, Christians and non-Christians alike. Thank you for a wonderful start to my day. Take Care, Dat To from Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Yes i have to agree with your line of thought, There was a time when I and my wife walked away from a church we were attending
because the pastor was not teaching the BIBLE the way it should be. ( one for the devil ) But you know i relized that i do not go to church for the people I go to church for JESUS CHRIST so i learned to give it to JESUS, As christians we have to look past
peoples faults we are not perfect beings thats why we have JESUS. When we were given salvation through the cross JESUS
forgave us, So like wise we have to do the same.Or we give the
Devil the victory. I do know how hard it is to go to church,
But we have to forgive and not judge its not easy but we have to get our strength from our LORD JESUS. Where there are people there is always going to be friction because the Devil is a roaring lion looking to devour who he can.
GOD BLESS
Don’t give up the race, One day you will receive a crown of life.
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIYv-uvsPOI
A tribute to Paul.
I was very much struck by the person who wrote “I see no evidence of Jesus in Anne Rice”
First of all isn’t that a form of judgement. What right does this person have to judge Abbe Rice. Is that from someone who believes in the teachings of Jesus but fails to understand the “judge not that ye shall be judged” part.
Spirituality and the belief in God and Jesus are a personal commitment that should remain private.
Simply put I am very glad that you have found your answers in Christianity and I hope that that fullfills you needs as I believe it will, but respect the beliefs of others and let them find their anwers.
If you find this offensive I’m sorry. This is my way of looking at spirituality. I wish you nothing but the best.
Take Care,
Beverlt Fletcher
That was Forrest. He consistently posts some of the most judgmental comments of anyone who visits my blog. I completely agree with your remarks re: judgment.
Who said ….”should remain private”????
We shall be judged by our fruit.
Jesus was private?
If you have an opinion, then you are in the battle.
Who or what do you put your greatest faith in???
M. Johnson
I was very much struck by the person who wrote “I see no evidence of Jesus in Anne Rice”
First of all isn’t that a form of judgement. What right does this person have to judge Abbe Rice. Is that from someone who believes in the teachings of Jesus but fails to understand the “judge not that ye shall be judged” part.
Spirituality and the belief in God and Jesus are a personal commitment that should remain private.
Simply put I am very glad that you have found your answers in Christianity and I hope that that fullfills you needs as I believe it will, but respect the beliefs of others and let them find their anwers.
If you find this offensive I’m sorry. This is my way of looking at spirituality. I wish you nothing but the best.
Take Care,
Beverly Fletcher