In another post, bestselling author Anne Rice told you her story – how, through historical research, she became convinced the facts support a real Jesus who rose from the dead. She explains how and why she left atheism to embrace hope.
Then, in 2010, she left the church. She said:
“For those who care, and I understand if you don’t: Today I quit being a Christian … It’s simply impossible for me to ‘belong’ to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I’ve tried. I’ve failed. I’m an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else.
“My faith in Christ is central to my life. My conversion from a pessimistic atheist lost in a world I didn’t understand, to an optimistic believer in a universe created and sustained by a loving God is crucial to me. But following Christ does not mean following His followers. Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity and always will be, no matter what Christianity is, has been or might become.”
Many have asked my thoughts about Anne Rice’s departure from the Catholic Church. Let me tell you my own story of struggling with quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious church people.
When I was 12, my mom went “bipolar.” Manic depressive with mild schizophrenia.
Except that for a year and a half, nobody knew that’s what was wrong with her. We just knew she was impossible to live with.
The fights, the arguments and contention would start as soon as I got home from school every day and stretch past bedtime.
Our entire family was bedlam for a year and a half.
Mom would swing from being your best friend to your worst enemy at the slightest provocation. I’d come home from school and find she’d tossed boxes of my stuff in the garbage. She’d say embarrassing things to my friends.
She insisted dad wasn’t really her husband. She said he was a man who looked just like Bob and she was sentenced to live with him until the ‘real’ Bob came back. When he came home from work she would hurl accusations at him. My brother and sister and I would complain bitterly to him about how she was treating us.
It was almost impossible to not get sucked into some kind of conflict every day. Home was the most dangerous place a kid could be.
My dad was taking her to doctors and counselors but nobody seemed to be able to arrive at any conclusion. Meanwhile, people watched us with a judgmental eye.
My dad was an associate pastor at a very large church in Nebraska, 2000+ members. Dad started getting heat from his boss, the senior pastor, Mr. G, who didn’t like the fact that one of the pastors’ wives was “out of line.”
Mr. G quoted the scripture that says a pastor should be in control of his family and told dad if he didn’t straighten out mom’s problem, he might have to leave.
Dad pursued answers and eventually got mom to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist diagnosed her with a chemical imbalance and bipolar disorder.
That trip to the psychiatrist was the straw that broke the camel’s back. Psychiatrists and psychologists, in Mr. G’s opinion, were the new high priests of a secular order that would dismiss all human ills as curable illnesses. Psychiatrists didn’t have the courage to call evil by its real names – SIN and DISOBEDIENCE. They existed to give people like my mom an alibi. Mr. G declared Mom insubordinate and rebellious.
Literally on the same day the diagnosis came back, Mr. G and Mr. J, the pastors of our church, visited our house to deliver the news. We all sat in the living room as they announced, “We’ve asked your father to resign from his responsibilities. He’s no longer qualified to be a pastor.”
I listened without much comment. I was 13. My older sister, however, was livid. At 18 she’d formed definite opinions about what had transpired. She started sobbing and retorted angrily to Mr. J: “If people knew what YOUR daughter does when she’s out at night, they’d be forcing you to resign too.”
Mr. J said, “We’re not here to talk about me or my family today, Robin. We’re here to talk about you.”
Earlier that day, dad had been brought before the Board of Elders to hear their final verdict. One by one, they agreed with Mr. G: “Bob, you’re not in control of your family. We’re sorry, you have to step down.” Mr. G demoted dad and announced to 2,000 people the following Sunday that dad had “resigned” so he could “attend to problems with Betty and the family.”
The next months were painful indeed. Few knew the real story. Some gathered around us. Most only knew something disgraceful had happened though and kept their distance. We felt like pariahs.
Dad couldn’t hang with his same friends anymore. He wasn’t invited to lunch at work. They shut him out of staff meetings. They hadn’t cut his pay, but he did lose a tax deduction. Less money to go around.
A couple months later I got into a fist fight at school. Came home with two black eyes. Bad report cards and complaints from teachers. All this added to the mounting case against dad.
He would come home from work every night and sit on the couch and sob. Mom told him it was all his fault for being such a cruel tyrant.
Dad followed through with the psychiatrist’s advice to get her on a prescription drug. Literally within a few days, mom transformed from defiant and combative to quiet and cooperative. The bizarre behavior stopped completely. Not only that, she went from being angry and defensive to feeling deep remorse about her erratic behavior.
Soon it became clear that Mr. G torpedoed dad simply because mom had a medical problem – a chemical imbalance – and that mom’s behavior wasn’t “sin” or “rebellion.” It was a well-understood mental illness. She couldn’t help herself.
Dad was hurt and humiliated and felt abandoned. He desperately wanted to bail. A lot of people told him he should quit his job, especially our relatives who understood the scope of the situation.
Dad thought about pulling up stakes, moving elsewhere. He decided to stick it out. To argue his case and vindicate himself.
Few men had the balls to stand up to Mr. G, but dad did. As mom’s condition improved, he said, “Mr. G, you made a wrong judgment and you need to apologize to my wife.”
Furthermore dad made Mr. G write her a letter of reconciliation, because by this time mom had become terrified of Mr. G. He had, after all, the ability to singlehandedly destroy dad’s career.
Nine months after dad had been demoted, he was reinstated.
Two weeks later dad was diagnosed with cancer.
Had dad cut and run, he would’ve been in a newcomer in some new environment, maybe even starting over in a brand new city, surrounded by strangers.
But since he’d stuck it out and vindicated himself, we were surrounded by a faith community that lent us help with dinners and financial support and prayers and encouragement.
Dad had major surgery. He was cancer free for a year and a half, then it came back. Treatments were unsuccessful, and as it became clear that he wasn’t going to make it, Mr. G secretly mailed a letter to everyone else at church. He explained how this summer might be Bob’s last and it would be really nice to raise some money, so Bob can take a trip to the West Coast.
$10,000 came in. In 1986 that was enough to not only take dad to California, a place he’d always longed to visit, but it was enough to get all of us to Alaska and Hawaii too. Dad experienced a 5 week “last hurrah” with his wife and kids that July.
That October, he died. I was 17.
I can’t tell you how many things I’ve wanted to quit, and didn’t, because dad wouldn’t throw in the towel and walk away from a bunch of quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous people.
And say what you want about ’em, when you’re in the oncology ward with terminal cancer, those are the same people that will probably be with you as you pass from here to the other side.
They will still have their faults and you will have yours, but… blood is thicker than water.
A faith community can become just as close and even closer than your biological family. It’s why they can hurt you so easily.
But there’s no such thing as a real community, or even a real relationship, that isn’t vulnerable. Painfully so sometimes. During our special vacation to California, dad told me that getting rejected and blamed for a mess he had no control of had been worse than dying of cancer was now.
Peter asked Jesus, how many times should I forgive my brother? Seven times?
Jesus said, “Seventy times seven. That’s how many times you should forgive.”
What do you forgive people for, anyway??
For being quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous. For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14-15.
After the potluck dinners have ended and people start throwing chairs at each other, it’s so easy to pull the plug and run. So many marriages don’t work out, it’s so easy to just live with someone and see how things turn out.
It IS easier.
It’s easier at first.
But when a series of relationships fail, they rip your heart to shreds just as much whether you were married or not. It just seemed like not ‘committing’ yourself lessened the risk. If your “common law wife” leaves you after 10 years, how is that any less painful than if your legally married wife leaves you? Just because it’s ‘unofficial’ doesn’t make it less perilous.
I’ve had to make multiple passes of forgiveness about Mr. G. A few years later when more fiascoes erupted, I had to let go again.
A few years after that, it occurred to me that my dad might not have even gotten cancer in the first place had he not endured two years in such a toxic, unsupportive, humiliating environment. That’s speculation, but still I had even more forgiveness I had to do.
A year ago I realized I needed to confront yet another layer of unforgiveness within myself. I had made a conscious choice to let go of the past, when I suddenly felt God saying to me, “The Father’s Heart is going to be poured out over Mr. G and his church.”
The day you forgive anther person is the day new blessings get released into their life. The day you forgive another person is the day you stop being a victim of whatever they did to you.
Dear Anne Rice, I greatly esteem your writing and your scholarship. I commend you for your adroit case for the historical Jesus. I appeal to you as a brother and member of the imperfect body of Christ, that to exit and publicly denounce them is to embrace quarreling… hostility… and public disputes.
From an individual view it’s all justified. But isolation makes islands of all of us. When we who were mistreated gather together in opposition to those who did us wrong, we inevitably become like those whom we judge.
A few years ago I visited an old college buddy in Washington DC. He was an exquisitely smart, seminary educated man who’d been a pastor in a Protestant evangelical church. He’d recently converted from Protestant to Eastern Orthodox.
Eastern Orthodox??? Most Americans don’t even know what that is.
I was dying to hear his explanation. “I don’t know what Peter’s going to tell me, but it’s sure gonna be interesting.”
I wasn’t disappointed. We sat up late three nights in a row exploring his decision. I don’t have time for the whole story now, but one of the points he made was this: “Protestants have ‘splitting off’ in their very DNA. As soon as they disagree, they leave First Baptist Church to go start Second Baptist Church. Then some of those people split off and form Third Baptist Church and on and on it goes.
“Catholics and Orthodox people don’t automatically do that. They prize unity. I have a bishop over me and he’s like a father to me and my wife. We live in community and in covenant together. He’s responsible to look out for us and we choose to be in a trusting mutual relationship.”
Whether you’re Protestant or Catholic or Orthodox… or if you’re on the outside looking in… I want to encourage you: living the nomad life is less demanding in the short term but lonelier in the long term.
As you make forgiveness a way of life, when you choose to live in community, you earn a kind of compound interest of grace. Months or years do not always reveal the fruit of that. It grows evident over decades. Community is the only place where you truly learn to forgive and learn to love.
The only way we exorcise our demons – both figuratively and literally – is in committed relationships with other people. Those around us are mirrors. They show us our faults, and we theirs. As we bathe those faults in mercy and forgiveness we become the people we aspire to be.
Perry Marshall
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“Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKnUMQ_U0zw&feature=related
What about prophet Muhammad peace be unto him and Islam
Amen! For is not Allah the God of Abraham? There are those who forget that. May blessings be upon all who sincerely seek God and concern themselves with the log in their own eye and not the speck in their brother’s. Jesus said “Love God, and love your neighbor- This is all the law and the prophets.”
allah is the Sumerian moon god and has absolutely nothing to do with YHVH the G_d of Abraham, that is a lie all Islamist spread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4fWN6VvgKQ
I can’t agree with you about Islam. But in the end, it’s what’s in your heart that matters most, not what’s in your head.
Those who sincerely seek God, people like you, shall FIND Him, sooner or later. It doesn’t matter whether you call Him “God” or “Allah”. Sooner or later, He will reveal His true nature to all of us who seek him. Ask Him to PROVE it to you!!! He answers that prayer every day. He answered it for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqwXdBJizgY&feature=related
God is Love. Love is connection. Connection happens physically, mentally, socially, psychologically, ideologically, and spiritually.
Seek first the kingdom of Love, (God),(connection).
All things work to good to those that love Love, (God), (connection). Or better yet: If you love God, (Love), (The universal connection that connects all things), work all things to good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UZVMv37K0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlFVVXqrs6U
Jesus is peace, not war. Justice, not oppression. No matter what evil things are done in His name.
This discussion has strayed quite a bit from its original topic.
A thought occurred to me: Ms. Rice seems to be making the mistake of confusing the actions of the Church with the actions of God. That’s why each one of us individually has the duty to constantly get back to what God is saying in His Word under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Stick to the basics. If we keep doing that, nothing that anybody says or does will surprise, shock or embitter us with respect to our relationship with God.
Rom 8:38-39 “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” We seem to lose sight of this. We need to stay grounded in HIM, and no one else.
It’s that simple.
I mean NO disrespect but, “DUH”. :^)
A simple Sister in Christ,
Kathryne
p.s. I’m not so sure that Ms. Rice is getting those things confused, because I haven’t talked to her to get the story straight from the horses (so to speak) mouth.
Well, for a moment I thought I had made a mistake, but a careful reread shows Ms. Rice said: ““For those who care, and I understand if you don’t: Today I quit being a Christian.” Yet in the very next paragraph she is quoted as saying ““My faith in Christ is central to my life …But following Christ does not mean following His followers. Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity…” which is really a bit self-contradictory isn’t it? But it does bring me a sigh of relief. It seems we both are right …or it may be a matter of semantics – what, in Ms. Rice’s frame of reference, exactly is understood to be meant by the word ‘Christian’?
To me, it is somebody who is, first and foremost, born again as a consequence of accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Master, confessing it with their mouth and then perhaps being baptised as (among other things) a testimony to that. Those (except baptism, which is a mighty important act of obedience that should follow your conversion nevertheless) are my minim requirements for being a Christian. I do not even set membership of a church or attendance of a gathering of believers as a condition.
Now in the light of this, if Ms. Rice says ‘I quit being a Christian,’ to me it is tantamount to stating she is forsaking her faith – a very grave matter indeed. However, if it merely means that she has distanced herself from the Catholic Church (or from ‘organized religion’ as many like to call it) I would like to ask the question: What’s the big deal? I’ve done it more than once in my life and my relationship with God survived it every time and is as strong as ever. This whole matter is beginning to look to me like a storm in a teacup.
Could it be that severing ties with the Catholic Church is a big deal for Ms. Rice because of her Catholic background? The Catholic Church believing that severing your ties with it is tantamount to forsaking your faith? If that be the case, I would like to say to Ms. Rice “Welcome to Protestantism! You are rediscovering what Martin Luther figured out 500 years ago.” When I ‘walked out’ of a ‘church’ the first time it also was a big deal for me – lots of fallout with my family and personal agonizing over it etc.
But underneath it all the cause was a momentous paradigm shift: instead of seeing ‘church’ as a cascading tree-diagram-like hierarchical structure, with the pope/bishop/moderator/or-whatever-you-want-to-call-him at the top, I now see it as a web of randomly interconnected nodes of believers, some standing stronger in the Lord and exhibiting corresponding spiritual leadership qualities than other, and people naturally and voluntarily being drawn to them and who freely, of their own volition, fellowships with them – and not out of some sense of duty or obligation. All under the unction and direct guidance and leadership of the Holy Spirit. No formal registration/membership, no baptismal certificates (if they demand one and cannot take my personal word that I am a baptized born again believer if records or witnesses are not readily available, they can go jump in the lake for all I care). The tree is known by its fruit (which should be the fruit of the Spirit), not its church records.
How can I adequately describe the place I find myself in right now? After years of hurt and agonizing over these issues, now I am free, I’m FREE, I’m FREE!
Yet it seems to me that by far the majority of Christians find this version of walking with God a very frightening prospect. They actually want some authority figure in their life to take over the responsibility for their spiritual life, a kind of contract: ‘If you sign up with us, we’ll see to it you make it to Heaven.’
Beware:
When you stand before the judgment seat of God one day, you will be facing Him alone when you give an account of yourself- ‘they’ will not be there to intercede on your behalf. You won’t be able to say “but they said…” for God will (in all likelihood) answer back “…And you believed them???”
Willem:
Exactly!!!! Thank you…
Your sister in Christ,
Kathryne
Dear Willem,
Please note that Ms. Rice stated she quit being a “christian”, not being a “Roman Catholic”. Whatever she meant is a matter of speculation. I believe that the use of word christian is deliberate and there is a hidden message in it. She is quitting christianity as it is, not the christianity as it should be. And she does not favor one form of christianity from another. There is nothing christ-like in the christianity that exist today because it is christianity in the state of discord, disorder, and division. Christians quarrel, squabble, even kill each other in the name of Jesus Christ. If Ms. Rice is looking for a perfect christianity, I’m sorry to say she cannot find it. If she did not find it in the Roman Catholic Church, she can’t find it either in Protestantism. It is bad leaving the Catholic Church. It is even worse embracing Protestantism. At least the Catholic Church remained one under one shepherd after Luther fragmented it. Protestants broke into shards, thousands of them, each to his own with no shepherd to lead them. It is a body without a head, a flock scattered without a shepherd, each with its own doctrines whatever fit their minds or suit their biases. Mind you, division is not the fruit of the Spirit. If you claim to be born again but is not united with the Church of Christ, your are not in the fruit of the Spirit but under the spirit of apostasy and rebellion.
If one believes that he can be a christian but don’t belong to a kind of church, he is like a sheep lost in the wilderness. One cannot claim he believes in Jesus Christ and yet refuses to enter His Church or be subject to it because Jesus Christ built a Church and He wants all of us in it. For what purpose did he build the Church if it is okay for us to be each on our own?
“You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church. No gates of hell shall prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatever you shall loosen on earth shall be loosened in heaven.” And he said to Peter: Feed my lambs, feed my sheep.
You know what keep the Catholic Church one? It is the Eucharist. Catholics may quarrel, squabble, even kill each other but on a Sunday they feed and feast on the body and blood of their Lord. The Catholic Church does not teach that one will be damned if he leaves the Church. The Lord taught so. “If one does not eat my body nor drink my blood, he has no life in him.” And only in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox that the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the bread and wine is believed. And man is justified by faith. not by good works. Faith is not selective, it embraces all that Jesus Christ teaches. If one selects what he wants to believe in, it is apostasy. Because Jesus teaches about his Church, we must be in that Church. If one refuses to enter it, it is a rebellion. Because Jesus teaches us to eat his body and drink his blood, we should do so. Otherwise, we are apostates. It is as simple as that.
Why can’t Ms. Rice find a perfect Christianity? It is because christians are people, not angels. If she wished she could find perfect christianity by looking at the people in it, she will be disappointed. If she wants to find perfect christianity, she must look at the Teachings of the Church, whatever Church that is, not look at its people. And Ms. Rice should not worry. Once, Jesus comes back, and He said in the book True Life in God “in our generation”, she will find True Christianity. I hope and pray we live to see that glorious day of christian unity.
Constantino
Hi Constantino,
Some good point you make, points that I agree with, and some other point I don’t quite agree with.
I agree with your first paragraph up to the point where you state “It is bad leaving the Catholic Church. It is even worse embracing Protestantism.” Your anti-Protestant bias shows. I read elsewhere on this thread that you suggest to someone that he join the Catholic Church first and get to know it from the inside, which, you claim you can guarantee will convert him to Catholicism. Well, may I ask: have you ever applied that principle to you bias against Protestantism or any other denomination?
As for the statement “Protestants broke into shards, thousands of them, each to his own with no shepherd to lead them” and the statement “You know what keep the Catholic Church one? It is the Eucharist” – I think there is a certain aspect of Protestantism, especially it’s offshoot Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement, that you clearly misunderstand: they do not believe that it is the Eucharist that keeps them together – is is Jesus Himself and His Holy Spirit. If every believer would but climb into the Word itself and start doing what it says, unity will follow of its own accord. The characteristic of a typical Charismatic congregation for instance (note that I talk of ‘congregation’ here and not ‘Church’ or even ‘denomination’ is that you can leave your country, fly to another continent and walk into another Charismatic meeting and straightaway feel quite at home there, without the two groups being in any kind of hierarchical relationship with each other. That is because they generally read the same Bible and listen to the same Spirit.
I would like to challenge you: put away your denominational blinkers, put away all and any theology and doctrinal books you may have, download e-Sword (if you haven’t done so already) which is an excellent free Bible study software using in particular its excellent concordances and dictionaries (go easy on the commentaries because those are also doctrinally biased). Spend say at least a year slowly and intesively and meditatively reading the Bible – here I would advise you to read long passages at a time, whole chapters, whole books – not just little fragments here and there before you fall asleep at night, and I will do the same. And then: watch how your and my viewpoints converge.
The reason: if every believer prayerfully were to get stuck into the WORD itself, first hand, you will find convergence and unity following of its own accord. The reason why there is so much division is because too many of us are delving into secondhand versions of the Word instead of the Word itself. You will also find that as you read, and re-read certain passages, connections between different parts of the Bible start forming, and you penetrate deeper and deeper revelations like the layers of an onion and you begin to find yourself placing the emphasis in the places where the Bible starts putting it. If you read the same admonishment in three or four epistles, you begin to realize
(Sorry, a wrong button got pressed and my text got posted before I finished typing!)
…you begin to realize that that issue is an important one to God. That way one stays balanced. ‘With what shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your Word.’ (Psalm 119:3)
It’s so simple, really
It didn’t really sound to me that Anne Rice was confusing the church with God at all. From the small statement above she says quite clearly, “My faith in Christ is central to my life…But following Christ does not mean following His followers. Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity…” It doesn’t sound like she is bitter or angry with God at all.
The Church that Christ established was of a people that live by faith; not a group of people who visit the same place each week. The institution of ‘church’ is rife with corruption and luke-warmness. There are many who grow closer to God when they leave such places. It can take a fair bit of faith to leave such groups. The Holy Spirit goes where it wills; it is not confined by church walls.
A genuine faith community is a community that resolves problems in it’s relationships, and functions as one body, with ‘one accord’. Christ gives us a clear step-by-step guide in how to go about resolving issues with brothers/sisters who have ‘wronged’ us (Matthew 18:15-17) and how to maintain this accord in our relationships. If the church is not practising this method laid down for us by Christ, can they really be said to be imitating Christ, and therefore part of His body?
Well said, and this was my take. With all the rhetoric I wasn’t sure if I was missing something…
The church humanity has created very good principils to follow. Fairness is paramount or at least has fairness as an example to strive toward. That is the only good I can see with the church. Rabbi Lawrence Kushner says God only gave the words to Moses, Exodus 20:2 Moses provided what follows in Exodus 20.
I look at people in church an ask myself what do they really believe is actually true and what is fantasy.
The reason I stay away from atheist groups is the rude argumentation.
I look outside traditional christianity for answers, my practice has earned me the label,”natural man”. I’m really very tired of the run of the mill in christianity.
“My kingdom is not of this world…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac4GnpqXQAQ
Even if the lions eat our flesh, our spirits will survive
That’s right Willem, but many had/have never yet been to the place of knowing what the Spirit is saying, so ‘His Word’ seemed to represent what men are saying and have been saying. We need to know God, to hear Him and to trust His grace before we are in that relationship can start and grow.
To do that, we often need to back right away from what we have known and learn to wait on the Spirit for a while.
This is the final scene from the film, “International Guerillas”, subtitled in English. It’s a film made in response to the Ayatollah Khomeni’s 1989 death edict against author Salmon Rushdie for insulting Islam. In this scene, a fictional Rushdie (who the film portrays as torturing Muslims) is incinerated by flying Korans (I’m not joking!). This bothered me, not only because of the “kill infidels” theme, but also because of the apparent book-worship. They are just as certain about the truth of their book as we are about the truth of ours. It got me thinking — how different are we Christians about our book, except that we use a different book? Without resorting to personal contact with God, we would have no greater basis for confidence in our book than Muslims have in theirs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eoNLlHzPhI
David: I just watched the flying Koran v. Rushdie. As I understand it one of the reasons you have distanced yourself from conventional Christianity is that we have the same zeal for our book as the Muslims have for their book? In other comments you seem to indicate you view Islam as having validity. One measure of the validity of a religion is the faith of its adherents, and it seems that between those who practice Christianity and thoase who worship Allah it is the Muslim who is more dedicated to his faith. Reading this post I see many comments by Christians who have nearlyor completly lost faith. Are you aware of similar blogs by discouraged Muslims? If you are to be a Christian you must have some basis of faith, why not include the Bible in that basis?
Muslims are dedicated to islam because they can be killed for defecting.
Christians are leaving Christianity because this is the end times and they are fulfilling prophecy.
Let’s hope Jesus gets soon otherwise there won’t be any left.
I consider the Bible to be a critical spiritual resource, I just don’t consider it to be infallible. I see it as 66 books written by sincere but fallible people who have had genuine experiences with God — a witness to the Truth, but not the Truth itself.
Although I have sympathy and concern for Muslims, and I have met many outstanding Muslim people out here, I don’t believe any of the claims of Islam. Regarding Muslim dedication to their religion, in Islamic countries you are considered a born Muslim if your parents were Muslim, and the Sharia penalty for converting to another religion is death. So it’s no wonder that Muslims, at least the ones living in Islamic countries, don’t speak out their doubts like Christians do.
But things are often different in reality than they are presented in the media. I am in Malaysia right now, a Muslim country, and at night the street I live on is lined with transvestite prostitutes. When I was in Morocco, I was offered a prostitute, and I was offered hashish there more times than I can count. If you go on “Google Trends”, a website that collects statistics on the national origins of people who type particular search terms into Google, you’ll find that, among people who type the word “sex” into search engines, six of the top nine countries are Islamic countries – the US isn’t even in the top 10 even though “sex” is an English word, not an Arabic one. Type in more vulgar sexual references in English, and you’ll see a similar pattern of over-representation by Muslim countries. Which indicates that perhaps Islamic societies have a big problem with Internet porn addiction. My concern is that the type of legalism that the use of infallible holy books encourages, actually increases sin rather than decreasing it.
I don’t mean to say bad things about Muslims, I just mean that despite all your hear from that part of the world about how decadent and corrupt the West is, they have the same social problems in their countries that we do. Following rules about behavior can’t change what’s in a person’s heart — but changing your heart automatically changes your behavior. Accordingly, I approach Christianity from a more mystical and less legalistic perspective than what I see in most churches (I’m not really a charismatic, though).
I can simplify it, but I can’t make it easy. Not in this physical life of separateness. The bulk, the very core of Christs teachings are about hard stuff.
Would Christ be crucified again by his followers when he didn’t deliver an easy answer? I think he probably would.
For those intent on finding an easy way to God, Love, or Connection,(especially with your enemies), let me try to dissuade you with the following quote:
“Of coarse evil is easier than good. It takes the shortcut too everything.”
You can’t love or forgive your enemies,or further the cause of Love/Gods Kingdom, if you haven’t done the work to see how you could be your enemy. It is ‘that’ knowledge that is prerequisite to both protecting yourself, and redirecting your enemies in a more loving and connected world. [Assuming your enemies are mostly at fault. (If not, ‘Crow’ may be in order.)]
Loving ALL others requires seeing yourself in them or how you could be them. Exercise that imagination.
Loving God requires surrendering yourself to whatever connects things in this universe. Exercise the relinquishing of your (self absorbed) will. “Be still and know that I am God.” Listen. Be good clay. Become an empty vessel. Seek the will of God/Love/Connection.
Having said all that, I am not totally confident that I am not throwing the baby out with the bath water. The initial surrendering of will along with the acknowledgment of our own selfishness is an important step that should not be dismissed as just an easy answer. We try to fortify it with a ritual or two, ….or three,……. perhaps in hope that it takes root. Being ‘saved’ ,’born again’, ‘baptized’, ‘sanctified’, all serve to mark or solidify a change in coarse.
Like I said in a previous post. It kind of works. We graduate a few every generation that would never have graduated without being exposed to both the difficult spirit of the law teachings of Christ and the letter of the law people who inadvertently preserve Christ’s difficult teachings, while pursuing their own letter of the law mode. The letter of the law, god appeasing stage tends to both hang on to everything, while accentuating the easy. Christ apparently saw the human need for an easy first step in a hopefully substantive growth process, and created it. It was called “Salvation”. Those of us who have seen the larger process develop with some and get arrested in others are left to ponder why. Was the heart not truly ready for the hard stuff? Or is this as good as it gets? Does everyone grow to their potential? Would the people preoccupied with listening to the holy spirit not even teach or preserve the Bible, and thus lose the vehicle of their own beginnings?
How do things go wrong in churches and with individuals? Are people that are worried about appeasing a vengeful God, more in a mind frame to surrender to a tangible authority like the church, more than to Jesus or to listen for the will of Love that connects all things? Are they asking, “how do I not get fried”, more than “how do I love my neighbor”? Or what if they are asking, “how do I succeed in this ‘Tribe’ and play by its’ rules”?, more than wanting to be at peace with God, (Love). Does a church cease to be the body of Christ when the leadership become primarily the authority, for the ‘Tribe’, rather than a servant of Gods’ will?
It is easy for me to imagine both Anne Rice & Perry Marshall listening to God and getting different answers in their different situations. Many of us are disappointed in how few there are among the multitudes of professed Christians that actually seem to be engaged in the hard stuff. Were we not told that this is the way it would be? It doesn’t make it any easier to know where we need to be. I will keep asking and listening.
Mr. Waln
Whoa… (thoughtful pause, whilst I digest). Simply profound.
Respectfully,
Kathryne
p.s. May I keep a copy of this as ‘one man’s excellent opinion’ when such a discussion might come up, in a more general sense, among my Christian brethren and sistren? I more often lean towards speaking for myself, and furthermore, I am not so easily knocked sideways by such insight, but how I would love to share this particular response of yours.
Thanks Kathryne, I hope it helps someone. One of the wonderful things about these discussions is that it expands our ability to connect and share with other people; people we would have never met in an earlier time. A big Thank you!, to Perry Marshall. Not only did I gain a lot from others’ writings here, but it forced me to clarify and expand some of my own thinking and experiences, by having to put in down in words for others to read. This is the work of Love. And thanks to all who took the time to add to this discussion. There were a lot of thought provoking stories and insights. I feel richer for the experience.
Indeed Bro’ David, you have expounded upon the complexity of Salvation, and the lukewarm state of the American Christian Church. Never ending denominations clearly define our carnal state. As well as, “our” technology in current fashion, obnoxious, having usurped authority in all our lives. We are caught up in an electronic snare, as Satan is Prince of the air. We have been slowly “washed” in a sea of CARNAL deception…Skin for skin…
B.U.S.Y. ~ Being Under Satan’s Yoke
Abraham Maslow’s Hierarchy Of Needs illustrates the carnal man and woman,,, who gets bogged down in the game of life on this selfish planet. Without Jesus, it is who we are as a species. The flesh is no good. It opposes the will of our Father. For we are to never call any earthly man our father.
Eschatological tension IS all about obedience IN LOVE (selfless)-vs- obedience IN COMPLIANCE (SELFISH),,, to be comfortably within a “tribe”, or to KNOW AGAPE LOVE,,, as only comes from above, as self-LESS love, as you so eloquently present. Amen. This IS The Roman’s Road. We are all works in progress.
Engaged in the hard stuff…Well, how about we cut even more fat off and get to the bones….Tribal acceptance and recognition is carnal and fleshly by nature (default DNA programming)….
Physiological need(s)…Maslow’s pyramid. Everyone within capitalism believes that MONEY is what they need to complete their own pyramid…Root of evil, all about the Benjamins,,, Capitalism,,, American style??? We are now falling victim to our own game.
Even when the corporate tribal counsel operates in a Sanctuary with Jesus name spoken, and Crosses on the wall, with deacons and elders and pastors and teachers, without HIS HOLY SPIRIT,,, the house is DEAD!!!
The building has nothing to do with it, nor does the carnal minded social attendies.
The HOLY BIBLE is void with out His Holy Spirit…Dry bones. We can read it inside and out, over and over, but without His Spirit, we cannot discern….(Let him who readeth understand).
As with EVERYTHING of this current Earth Age, it is all a matter of inches…Somewhere around 18 of them…From the center of our mind, to the center of our heart…Actually, is our heart even physical at all?
The LOVE you speak of, on the much more complex level,,, having being born again of Spirit, His Spirit, from above, is not of our own logistics or execution.
We choose Salvation through Jesus as you state, but to be Born Again is much deeper and complex, and not by our doing…
We Choose Christ, we seek Repentance, we are freely granted Salvation, for His mercy and grace IS sufficient. We then are naked and being nursed with milk…What will the babe do from that moment forward??? Well, ole devil dude wants to kick it all down…Kill the babe. Spoil the milk. Put ’em on a Worldly can of “formula” rather than God’s provision…The devil comes to counterclaim everything.
Yet, something much more deeper occurs at an undetermined point within our committed walk with Jesus.
To illustrate in your spirit, one might depict this “new man” as suddenly being placed on the Lord’s radar at the point of one’s choosing of Christ as their personal Saviour. A gift, for those who freely CHOOSE to receive…
Then we undergo MONITORING and Mentoring process via THE GIFT of His Holy Spirit. For most, His Spirit lies dormant in us…We know not His voice, for we are new to His Fold, but The Shepherd is watching our moves…Our obedience, our willingness to follow Him. How close do we follow Him, how tucked in behind Him are we, how much do we enjoy riding in His wake, cleaving to His chest, leaning on His LOVE….Are we eager to fill our lamps with His oil? Craving to fill our fresh wineskin with new wine?
Your paragraph of thought is sooo REAL:
“Christ apparently saw the human need for an easy first step in a hopefully substantive growth process, and created it. It was called “Salvation”.
This sentence within though, i find hard to grasp your intent but discern that it is GOOD, real TRUTH:
“Those of us who have seen the larger process develop with some and get arrested in others are left to ponder why. Was the heart not truly ready for the hard stuff?”
He works on our heart, we initiate the potential born again experience by believing in Jesus, yet to receive all that is in store for the awakened soul requires increased FAITH, a gift, according to His Inspired WORD.
Many not CHANGED SPIRITUALLY because they still CHOOSE fleshly things…They are not placing JESUS FIRST…Love The Lord with ALL your heart, mind, and soul,,, this requires more than just sliding Him in amongst your immediate family. Right off the bat, in a married male-n-female couple, if she has usurped him, as MOST Americans now live, the ENTIRE HOUSE is damned. Momma is not in control…But yet….The Word says no and she says yes…The American family is a mess. Desensitized and dumbed down, trinkets and gadgets ruling the every hour.
You posted: “Is this as good as it gets? Does everyone grow to their potential? Would the people preoccupied with listening to the holy spirit not even teach or preserve the Bible, and thus lose the vehicle of their own beginnings?”
THE FLESH, THE FAMILY, THE MARRIAGE, THE PARENTS, THE CHILDREN,,,, if any of these outweigh Christ, then His Spirit is dead.
We seek Him through Salvation,,, Then HE YANKS US UP,,, after we sincerely seek Him FIRST, His Will, His WORD,,,, Then indeed HE makes us into new creatures.
The flesh becomes a TENT instead of being our Master.
Ye must be born twice,,, once from the water, and again in Spirit. His Spirit…The Comforter, The Convictor, The Commission.
We are to crucify our flesh, and pick up our cross, as Christ. Unselfish, longsuffering, all loving, and SOLD OUT to Him first.
Can we lay our son down on the Altar and offer him up as a sacrifice??
Hosea 6:6…MERCY not sacrifice. LOVE not works.
Thank you JESUS!!!
Mark 1:1-22, (NASU), 1The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
2As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY; (see Malachi 3:1)
3THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
‘MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.'” (see Isaiah 40:3)
4John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins. 6John was clothed with camel’s hair and wore a leather belt around his waist, and his diet was locusts and wild honey. 7And he was preaching, and saying, “After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals. 8″I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” 9In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; 11and a voice came out of the heavens: “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.” 12Immediately the Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness. 13And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him. 14Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” 16As He was going along by the Sea of Galilee, He saw Simon and Andrew, the brother of Simon, casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. 17And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.” 18Immediately they left their nets and followed Him. 19Going on a little farther, He saw James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, who were also in the boat mending the nets. 20Immediately He called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired servants, and went away to follow Him. 21They went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach. 22They were amazed at His teaching; for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Jeremiah 16:14-21 (NASU), 14″Therefore behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when it will no longer be said, ‘As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt,’ 15but, ‘As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of the north and from all the countries where He had banished them.’ For I will restore them to their own land which I gave to their fathers. 16″Behold, I am going to send for many fishermen,” declares the LORD, “and they will fish for them; and afterwards I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them from every mountain and every hill and from the clefts of the rocks. 17″For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity concealed from My eyes. 18″I will first doubly repay their iniquity and their sin, because they have polluted My land; they have filled My inheritance with the carcasses of their detestable idols and with their abominations.”
19O LORD, my strength and my stronghold,
And my refuge in the day of distress,
To You the nations will come
From the ends of the earth and say,
“Our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood,
Futility and things of no profit.”
20Can man make gods for himself?
Yet they are not gods!
21″Therefore behold, I am going to make them know–
This time I will make them know
My power and My might;
And they shall know that My name is the LORD.”
Willem Basson said: “To me, it is somebody who is, first and foremost, born again as a consequence of accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Master, confessing it with their mouth and then perhaps being baptised as (among other things) a testimony to that. Those (except baptism, which is a mighty important act of obedience that should follow your conversion nevertheless) are my minim requirements for being a Christian. ”
I believe Jesus’ minimum requirements are found in Luke 14:33: “He who does not forsake all that he has, cannot be my disciple”
For many come saying “Lord, Lord” (heck, even Satan and his dark angels know that Jesus is Lord), but Jesus says, “Why do you call me Lord, Lord, but do not do the things I say” (Luke 6:46).
To follow Christ/be a Christian is not about ‘confessions’ of faith. Faith is evidenced in the way we live our lives, not what bumper stickers we put on our cars, or what we tell people about ourselves. “Let us not love in word, but in deed and in truth”. Can you really say you are following Christ and not serving two masters when the vast majority of your time is given to doing something other than preaching the gospel, for example?
Deep thoughts. Radical action required. The gift of God is eternal life, and if we are going to be judged on the things we have done – we had better make sure our time is TRULY being spent building God’s Kingdom, not preserving our own.
Matthew 7:15-23 (NASU), 15Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’
“Christians” are not properly taught what lawlessness means. The Torah of Moses, Genesis through Deuteronomy, often termed “The Law”, is what Jesus is referring to in this instance. “LAWLESSNESS” here means not obeying God’s commands and ordinances written in the Torah of Moses, which includes the Ten Commandments and the majority of Christendom violates the Fourth Commandment.
Exodus 20:8-11 (NASU), 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.”
So if you are a “Christian” and you are not “Remembering the Sabbath day, to keep it holy” you are one that practices Lawlessness. And the Sabbath is the Seventh Day, Saturday. It was the Roman Catholic Church that changed the Sabbath to Sunday, which they had no authority to do and they admit this fact also.
Genesis 2:2-3 (NASU), 2By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
After reading most of the follow-up posts here, I noticed that many strayed far from the original subject. Nothing unusual or troubling about that in my book. Faith (and politics) tend to create passionate debate.
Those most sure about their own personal beliefs often spoke the most fervently.
A few things to consider follow.
Ms Rice never renounced Christ. She just decided that faith is not confined to a specific congregation, house of worship or fellowship. Many of the posters here questioned that as an illegitimate avenue of belief. Even the host of this site brought this up indirectly in his response.
Don’t question her faith unless you have a clear case (beyond your own perception) of what ‘faith’ is.
Don’t minimize her experiences as ‘back-sliding’ or ‘liberal’ or ‘unchristian’ unless you are prepared to look at yourself in the mirror.
Finally, Let It Go. Anne Rice is neither a biblical scholar, social conservative or avatar of a given belief. And she’ll never claim to be. She went through a series of life ordeals that none should question being genuine.
Her personal commitments can be debated, Bible verses can be quoted, sermons can be sited and opinions can be liberally offered. It won’t help you or her get closer to Christ.
“Physician, heal thyself”.
Wise words which have been said well by a few others on this thread, as well. The more the better, though. Thank you for chiming in. God’s blessing on you.
“Physician, heal thyself”,,,
Matthew Henry’s Commentary ~ Still is Jesus rejected by multitudes who hear the same message from his words. While they crucify him afresh by their sins, may we honour him as the Son of God, the Saviour of men, and seek to show we do so by our obedience.
Paul wrote: “Ms Rice never renounced Christ. She just decided that faith is not confined to a specific congregation, house of worship or fellowship.”
Actually she specifically stated ALL, THE Church, not “a”, specific congregation.
Paul also wrote: “Many of the posters here questioned that as an illegitimate avenue of belief.”
Faith without works is dead…The Church congregation serves a purpose, and the flesh, as long as it breathes and has a heartbeat, needs association with other warm blooded believers in order to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and to admonish and uplift one another IN SPIRIT.
“For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” Jesus spoke in Matthew 18.
Paul also wrote: “Even the host of this site brought this up indirectly in his response.”
So you “read” into his heart as well?
Re-post: Then, in 2010, she (Anne Rice) left the church. She said:
“For those who care, and I understand if you don’t: Today I quit being a Christian … It’s simply impossible for me to ‘belong’ to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group. For ten years, I’ve tried. I’ve failed. I’m an outsider. My conscience will allow nothing else.
“My faith in Christ is central to my life. My conversion from a pessimistic atheist lost in a world I didn’t understand, to an optimistic believer in a universe created and sustained by a loving God is crucial to me. But following Christ does not mean following His followers. Christ is infinitely more important than Christianity and always will be, no matter what Christianity is, has been or might become.”
Anne Rice made the public proclamation, as people listen to what she has to say…What benchmark is she to us?
Obviously she wants it HER way…So where is the LONGSUFFERING in that?
She ENTERS corporate fellowship with the ALL TO COMMON mindset of what can I get from this place and what will MY Jesus do for me today…IT AINT ABOUT US!
It is all about JESUS!
Paul wrote: “Don’t question her faith unless you have a clear case (beyond your own perception) of what ‘faith’ is.”
Paul, you should EXPOUND bigtime on what you mean in that…What is your perception of what “FAITH” is?
…The deeper or deepest issue in ALL OF THIS is a lack of commitment to the Works that James speaks of…Also in the Book of Hebrews…Faith without works is dead…True love from above,,, AGAPE Love is about loving our enemies. Totally non-biased or non-respective of who it is we are focusing upon….
The church IS full of carnally minded, UN-born again Christians who, still, after proclaiming Christ, think that what they “think” is what we all need to believe…
There is only ONE TRUTH…Jesus Christ told us to continually TEST the Spirits…Seek the Truth.
ONLY via His Holy Spirit can we grab onto such awesome revelation.
He tore the Temple Curtain from the TOP to the bottom, allowing us to have a relationship with ABBA Father, one on ONE, via the born again from above blessing of His Spirit indwelling within our very hearts…Breathe on us Lord, teach us, and compel us,,, to ACT upon your longsuffering toward the lost, toward our enemies, and toward those in the Church who are just playing around, instead of seeking You and Your Kingdom FIRST,,, with all of our Heart, Mind, and Soul.
Hosea 6:6 Jehovah God of Creation desires MERCY not sacrifice…He is compelled to forgive in LOVE through His mercy and grace, and indeed JESUS closed the deal…IT IS FINISHED…He tarries for ALL who believe and repent from their carnal ways…Anne should be sharing her witness continually, but showing a lack of compassion for the lukewarm is not in His will of mercy, love, grace and longsuffering. Vengeance is HIS…He IS a jealous God. The author of each and every soul upon the terra firma.
“…seek to show we do so by our obedience.”
Those that are last shall be first.
The meek shall inherit the Earth.
The flesh opposes the Spirit.
In closing,,, Brother Paul “It won’t help you or her get closer to Christ.”
Since you appear to have the Key to David, might you reveal the secret you claim to share in secret?
“Finally, Let It Go. Anne Rice is neither a biblical scholar, social conservative or avatar of a given belief. And she’ll never claim to be. She went through a series of life ordeals that none should question being genuine.”
Carnal minded, wordly people,,, many women,,, focus on the words of living authors of this day…Anyone who has such an impression on the World IS held at a much higher level of accountability.
If Anne Rice wants to run off because she is still worried about everyone not thinking as she does, then maybe she could do it in private. Many weak liberal wordly people use these public figures as a benchmark…Look at Oprah and her body of people (ironic) who push the agenda of a nameless god who has NO affiliation with Jesus Christ.
NOBODY can heal themselves without JESUS…By Christ, sinners may be loosed from the bonds of guilt, and by his Spirit and grace from the bondage of corruption. He came by the word of His gospel, to bring light to those that sat in the dark, and by the power of His grace, to give sight to those that were blind. And He preached the acceptable year of the Lord. Let sinners attend to the Saviour’s invitation when liberty is thus proclaimed.
Jesus IS the answer! Faith without works is dead. Two or more must be gathered in His name to have any REAL POWER.
Edify His name…Emmanuel.
Strange how most always it is momma who defends the flesh in every situation. “Woe to the woman who haveth no covering in those days.”
Usurped authority is the damnation of the World. Ahab was a momma’s boy who make all us men look bad, with his wife wearing the pants…His order, His will, His Creation.
I didn’t make the rules nor write the Book,,, but believe this, the man IS the head of His household and the woman is his help meet.
I Corinthians 11:19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.
Our wisdom and understanding is continual…None are complete in the flesh…We are all works in progress, and Jesus is our Advocate. We approach the Father through Him, for the Father is soo much greater than we can even grasp,,, I AM THAT I AM.
Blessed be the name of the Lord!!!
What TRULY heals us is His LOVE which can ONLY originate from above. The four Greek words for the “categories” of love: Storge, Philos, Eros and Agape…Only one is of His Spirit,,, the other three originate in the natural man, making these modern day false saviours believe that man can save himself….The World Order we see coming to term in our World today, as the Earth’s birthing pains become closer and closer, soon to birth the Third Earth Age, The Millennium.
Michael,
“Actually she specifically stated ALL, THE Church, not “a”, specific congregation”
And you know, for a fact, that she doesn’t informally meet with, or worship with, others who share a love of Christ?
“What benchmark is she to us?
Obviously she wants it HER way…So where is the LONGSUFFERING in that?
If Anne Rice wants to run off because she is still worried about everyone not thinking as she does, then maybe she could do it in private.”
She makes no claim as a benchmark, expert or “longsuffering” ‘true believer’. She’s making a public statement… much like you are doing on this subject. Does that mean everyone here (including Perry) should keep their beliefs to themselves???? Or are you saying that only ‘real’ Christians have that right?
“Paul wrote: “Don’t question her faith unless you have a clear case (beyond your own perception) of what ‘faith’ is.”
Paul, you should EXPOUND bigtime on what you mean in that…What is your perception of what “FAITH” is?”
Since I’m not the one questioning Anne’s, Oprah’s, yours or anyone else’s faith here, my own definition of ‘faith’ isn’t in play, Michael. But we too easily judge others…. directly or indirectly. That is ABSOLUTELY clear in these posts. And many of us do so by offering selective passages from imperfect (and often contradictory) “Holy Books” of practically every creed and discipline. It’s the age-old story of which king, pope, religion, army, nation or ethnicity has ‘God’ on their side and which ones don’t.
“Carnal minded, wordly people,,, many women,,, focus on the words of living authors of this day…Anyone who has such an impression on the World IS held at a much higher level of accountability.”
And who is elected to hold them to this ‘higher standard, Michael? You? Someone else? The Bible? Pat Robertson? And which passages of the Bible give you (et al) that authority?
“Strange how most always it is momma who defends the flesh in every situation. “Woe to the woman who haveth no covering in those days.”
Usurped authority is the damnation of the World. Ahab was a momma’s boy who make all us men look bad, with his wife wearing the pants…His order, His will, His Creation.
I didn’t make the rules nor write the Book,,, but believe this, the man IS the head of His household and the woman is his help meet.”
Since time travel isn’t an option, perhaps you should consider moving to an area of the world that shares your views about women’s roles in society. Ours has equal rights/equal pay/equal treatment laws that you might find uncomfortable or heretical.
“Since you appear to have the Key to David, might you reveal the secret you claim to share in secret?”
Couldn’t have made it more plain, Michael. You can see me, Anne Rice or anyone else around you as an ‘infidel’ or a ‘true believer’. All with God’s tacit approval, apparently.
Best wishes, Michael.
Hi, Micahael and everybody:
I replied to Michael’s article because it was convenient for me but this does not have anything to do about Michael’s writing. I Just want to say how sad I am about Anne Rice’s leaving the Roman Catholic Church AFTER REDISCOVERING GOD AND CHRISTIANITY. I am a Roman Catholic, a practicing one and I know how fractious and quarrelsome Catholics can be. My brother also left the Catholic Church. But it doesn’t make a dent in my beliefs and my relationship with Jesus Christ. I believe that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus not because the Church teaches so, not because records of history say so but because Jesus Christ said so. When, where, and how did Jesus Christ said that? I would leave it to your own curiosity to find out the answer. Just browse the book : TRUE LIFE IN GOD (TLIG). The Author of this book is Jesus Christ, the secretary Vassula Ryden. In this book God is speaking to humanity specially to us divided Christians. The book is just a few clicks away from you in the internet.
“Lower your voice so you can hear mine, lower your heads so you can see mine”: Jesus Christ in True Life in God.
I guess we, human beings, are too occupied with getting our own voices heard that we can no longer hear God’s Voice and too eager to show our own heads and faces to others that God’s face is no longer seen.
Yours,
CONSTANTINO
Wow, Constantino, I have to raise two issues with you but before I do I want you to know that I believe that finding eternal life with Jesus is more about a person’s heart attitude than anything else.
Firstly you say “I believe that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus” and I’m sure you’ve got some pretty conclusive “evidence” to prove this. But what is the relevance of this? As a member of the Catholic Church are you guaranteed a place in heaven? No! And if you are not a member of the Catholic Church do you fail to get into heaven? Again: No! Did Jesus say “He who is a member of the Catholic Church has everlasting life.”? No! Check John 6:47 – “He who believes on ME has everlasting life.”
Secondly you say “TRUE LIFE IN GOD (TLIG). The Author of this book is Jesus Christ”. You must have many reasons why you believe this but there is one good reason why you shouldn’t. Most believers consider the bible to be the inerrant Word of God. Nowhere does it say that Jesus and the secretary Vassula Ryden will write another book. That would be tantamount to admitting that the bible was inadequate and contains errors or omissions. That’s awkward to say the least!
Let’s stop over-spiritualising everything and just do what Jesus said, “Follow Me”! He will give you opportunity to do that everyday if your heart attitude is hunger and thirst for Him.
Chris
Dear Chris,
You are correct! Membership in the Catholic Church does not guarantee salvation. The document of the Catholic Church, the Lumen Gentium (Light of Nations) say that even if one is baptized into the Catholic Church, if one does not persist in Charity, he/she cannot be saved. However, the Church can teach one to believe in God and to live righteously in order to go to heaven. That is her necessary role and it stops up to that. Since salvation is a gift given through the church, anybody can accept or refuse the gift. The Church is necessary for salvation because it is in the Church that the teachings of Christ to gain salvation is kept, guarded, and preserved. Without the Church, all revelations would have been now useless literature torn and mangled into pieces, perverted by intellectual ferment, philosophies, ideologies, demonic doctrines, and selfish beliefs. The Church, therefore, has the capability to reveal the true image of Jesus Christ as revealed in the scriptures so those wanting to follow Him is assured of following the True Christ and are formed in His True Image, not the false christ. The rest lies in man’s free will. Somewhere Jesus commanded:”Go ye therefore to all nations, baptize them in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit…teach them …. Those who will reject you will not be saved”.
Chris, Jesus promised to send his Holy Spirit to remind us of all that he taught. When today God, through the Holy Spirit, is talking to mankind because man is at the brink of destruction, He does not make new revelation about Himself. He is only reminding us of what has been revealed in the Scriptures and telling us that all that was written in the Scriptures are unfolding before our very eyes and yet, just like in the time of Noah, nobody is listening and not recognizing the signs of the times. In the book, True Life in God, the Trinity is speaking to mankind in the first person. Vassula Ryden did not write: God said this, Jesus said that, the Holy Spirit said so..It is either Jesus or the Father or the Holy Spirit saying something. The book has three main thrusts: It is God’s love song to you. He tells you how He loves you to folly, God talking to you like you are the only person in the world. It is ecumenistic, meaning it asks for the unity of all christians, and prophetic/apocaliptic, telling mankind that Jesus Christ is on His way of return and that we could hear his footsteps already. Ever wonder why the world is shaking now? It would do us, Christians, good to be even just be curious and read the book and judge it afterwards. I suggest you read it. It’s in the internet. It within your fingertips.
When you have read it, write to me again and tell me what you think.
God bless you, Chris.
Constantino
Hi Constantino
I’m not going to answer your latest response because it is so fraught with what I consider to be error that my response will simply expand the discourse to another level, drawing us further from the point: Jeshua Meshiac.
I don’t know if Anne Rice did the right thing by leaving the church but I’m very curious as to your response to the book of Revelation’s description of the seven churches (assemblies) (Rev: 2.1 – 3.22). Even at this young and tender stage of “Christianity” we see radical and divergent assemblies or communities of “believers”.
ALL BUT ONE OF THEM draws one or more “I have this charge to make against you…” from the book’s writer. So even the early “church” could not keep on the “Christian” track. However, in most every case there are a few people (the remnant?) who manage to stay out of what their community is doing despite being a part of it.
So, no, it’s not right to leave a community if God has placed you there. But are any of today’s “churches” the body of Christ? In my humble opinion, NO.
Bottom line (for me anyway): stay away from organised religion but become heavily involved in supporting everyone in your community from the widows and the orphans to the richest, most powerful people around. Let the Holy Spirit use you to bring them to Jesus.
Chris
Michael,
You are obviously a dedicated believer. And I’d guess that your faith has helped you become a better, more positive force for you and those you interact with.
You’ve quoted often from selective passages in the New Testament to make your points, and there’s no denying you are well-studied in it.
So your own consideration of the following few comments is strictly a matter of choice on your part:
You mentioned that Ms. Rice didn’t have to make a public statement about her withdrawal from the Catholic Church,
(“If Anne Rice wants to run off because she is still worried about everyone not thinking as she does, then maybe she could do it in private.”).
Yet here we are posting views in a public forum. Does your statement infer Anne doesn’t have the right to a public voice, but ‘true’ Chritians do????
As far as women’s roles in society are concerned…..
We have equal rights laws, equal protections, equal pay statutes. Many heads of state in this and other countries are women. Supreme Court Justices, diplomats, CEOs, etc.
Let’s not assume it’s all some weak liberal idea or quota system giving the less qualified jobs that another gender, race or religious devotee is automatically better at. Let’s assume they are well-qualified for what they do. Does the biblical passage you quoted infer that they should all go home and be ‘help meets’ to their husbands?
If our current laws are uncomfortable or ‘unmanly’ to you, you have alternatives.
The only one of us who’s questioning anyone’s faith is you, Michael. You clearly feel your standing belief justifies that. Laying it all on hand-picked passages of the Bible and exclaiming, “I didn’t make the rules or write the book” is only half the story.
Finally, even if I or anyone else had the Key to David, would it make a difference? Do you think that if Christ returned today he would be crucified by liberals or those who have built vast financial, political and economic empires using his name? Would he put all women back in their ‘place’? Would the ‘Sons of Ham’ revert to their roles as servants and slaves? Would we all suddenly discover the world and all living things were created in 6 days 6000 years ago?
If you stick soley to the Bible to address these, you will already have your answers. But if you care to ask yourself as an imperfect child of God, you may find the answers aren’t so easy to find. And THAT may not be such a bad thing.
Best wishes to you and your loved ones, Michael.
Yes Paul, speak it!
Personally I think the church age is over.
For me the issue is community (ekklesia). I can visualize Jesus asking “Did you feed the widow and the orphan?” and not asking “So how big was that church you built?”
Well said, Chris.
If we ever see the physical incarnate of Christ in our lifetime, I got a feeling he won’t make a lot of ‘true believers’ happy.
I suspect it will be a recap of Dostoevsky’s “Grand Inquisitor” play.
Killed By A Coconut:
He just had a stress test, and he was fine
His cholesterol level was down to 209.
He saved up his money, retired to the tropic sea
There he was resting contentedly underneath a tall palm tree
When he was… killed by a coconut
Killed by a coconut
Just when things were lookin’ up…
He happened to be lookin’ down.
Yeah, he was… killed by a coconut (and you could be)
Killed by a coconut (that’s why you never should be)
Sittin’ underneath a coconut tree
When the coconut come down.
After five years of beggin’ and pleadin’
She finally said yes.
They slipped into his apartment,
She slipped out of her dress.
He lit up some incense, and unplugged the phone
And was just about to enter the twilight zone
When he was… killed by a coconut (oh, what a feeling)
Killed by a coconut (it came through the ceiling)
The people upstairs were havin’ a luau
And one fell through the floor.
And you’ll be killed by a coconut (if you ain’t protected)
Killed by a coconut (they come unexpected)
So never be lyin’ in bed at night with the one that you adore.
He got the promotion, he felt great.
He took everybody in the office out to celebrate.
He ordered up pina coladas all around,
And they made a toast, he drank it down and made a gasping sound.
And he was… killed by a coconut (a great big cold one)
Killed by a coconut (he swallowed a whole one)
The young bartender was just out of school
And put the whole damn coconut in
He was… killed by a coconut (it ain’t no joke)
You could be killed by a coconut (gasp and choke)
So never be drinkin’ in a bar at night
Surrounded by all of your friends
He came back from Vietnam without even a scar (guy was a hero)
Started drivin’ them demolition derby cars
He joined the police force
Survived a shoot out or two (uh oh, I think I see what’s comin’)
Now he was heathily joggin’ down the avenue
When he was…
Killed by a pineapple (they were out of coconuts)
Killed by a pineapple (felt just like a coconut)
The A&P truck hit a telephone pole and fruit went flyin’ everywhere
So, if there’s plans you got (big, big plans you got)
Just make sure you’re not just not (just make sure you’re not)
Joggin’ down the road on a sunny afternoon
‘Cause coconuts are lurkin’ out there
And you’ll be…
Killed by a coconut (what a way to die now)
Killed by a coconut (everybody cry now)
Fate has a way of makin’ you pay for all wrongs you do
And all the plans you got (all the plans you got)
Ain’t gonna mean a lot (ain’t gonna mean a lot)
When you meet up with the coconut
That’s out there waitin’ for you
Yeah, the plans you got – will not mean a lot
When you take a shot – that don’t feel so hot
And ready or not, you come to the spot
Your coconut’s waitin’ for you.
(Somewhere there’s a tropical fruit with your name on it)
My feelings about dying. Dying is part of living. Our souls go forward to somewhere else and we continue. I know becuase I came very close to dying last year after suffering from pneumonia, MRSA, and aa potassium level so low it was less than a cadaver (some sweet doctor informed me).
I don’t remember much of the critical part of this illness but I hve a very clear picture of choosing not to die. I was walking along a sunny road next to a beautiful meadow with yellow flowers sprinkled in the new spring grass. I knew that if I climbed the fence I would move on to something different. It was very tempting but I thought of my husband, children and grandchildren. Our best friends who we have known forever. Our older relative who are all gone now. I knew I wasn’t ready to leave yet. I want to meet our great grandchildren. I want to dance at my grandaughter’s wedding and watch my grandsons become fathers.
I thank God for the love he surrounds us with and his constant presence. I think whatever your view of God is it’s your view. Hold onto that love and allow the meticulous details which we love to debate vannish in that love. With thanks to God and a Blessing for you all,Beverly
Perry
I’m not a Christian, although, having been a Catholic as a teenager, I keep a respectful curiosity for everything spiritual. And being a follower and admirer of your writings in the business arena, I’m always curious to see what Perry Marshall will say about that. Your story resounded with me: I’ve quit many communities, church, marriage and even homrcountry included. I’ve also quit one or two jobs – Dilbert Cubes, as you’d call them. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn’t have stayed a little longer. It would have taken some forgiveness. Companies, like churches or families, are communities where there is a lot of conflict, but also a lot of mutual love and support. Your story – not entirely in line with what you preach to your cherished following of “Dilbert Cube runaways” – made me think of my previous professional life in a new way.
Jayme,
When you said you are not a christian what immediately came to my mind was you were some kind of atheist or adherent of religion other than Christianity. And when you further said you were a Catholic during your teenage years rather confused me. Only after rereading your letter several times did it occur to me that you were making a distinction between Christians and Catholics and in that distinction it seems that you don’t consider Catholics as Christians the same way many Christian regard Catholics as non Christians. Well, it is their belief and we cannot do much about it. However, do not worry that you are not a Christian. You are! Because Catholics are the original Christians. I believe, by participating in this forum, Christ is drawing you near to him.
God bless you.
Constantino
Constantino,
“Because Catholics are the original Christians”
Based on studies of the Dead Sea Scrolls (among other early sources), the earliest Christians (including Peter, Thomas, Mark, Luke, James and Paul) appeared to be far more Gnostic than Catholic. The Church only asserted a homogenous, unifying hierarchy in the 2nd century….. much to the cause of your namesake… long AFTER those same scrolls were dated and reportedly written.
Of course, this debate will no doubt rage on and bring out more passionate counter-arguments. All the better.
I could just as easily accept on Faith that the Gospel of Thomas or Mary Magdelene is the defining creed of Christianity. I don’t. But neither do I take on Faith the Catholic Church’s claim, the JW claim, the Mormon claim, the early 7th Day claim or the Evangelical claim to being the ‘one true’ Faith.
If you read the writings of Polycarp, Ignatius, the Didache and other documents written between 80-120AD you’ll quickly see the early church wasn’t very gnostic.
Amen to that! Incidentally, might these subjects regarding ‘Religions’ which seem to have segued from the original question quite a bit, yet are significant and interesting topics, garner a ‘thread’ of their own? Or, shall I re-glue the packing tape over my mouth. Oh, he he, that won’t do any good. Tsh, psh,glg (sorry, choking on my own self mirth), shall I unplug?
<;^D
I would cede you some room on this, Perry. Only some.
Polycarp’s writings and his legendary stories were heavily edited and compiled under Bishop Iraneus, a Literalist who campaigned agressively against ‘heresies’, the worst of which (in his mind) was Gnosticism. He was also likely behind the now dubious ‘references’ to Jesus by the Roman Historian Josephus among many other early church historical documents.
That said, Polycarp WAS among a growing number of Christian sects that emerged within the first few hundred years. Some sects completely at odds with others. In the inevitable political power struggles to claim ‘one church’, the Literalists (later as Catholics) won out for the most part.
Ignatius'(another Literalist) writings were similarly officially edited (though not as well as Polycarp’s) later on into a miasma of contradictory letters with little knowledge of what the originals said.
For now, I will defer to your reference on Didache. I know little about him other than his “Twelve Apostles” that for a (very) brief time became part of the New Testament. The original work is likely from a wide variety of sources and was probably rejected by the Church due to its continued references to Jewish practices evolving into Christian belief systems. Not a popular premise at the time of its review.
But I welcome your further comments. Our faith is one of the most powerful things we have. My only contention is that putting faith in an ‘infallible word’ and a literal interpretation of same is a hazardous course that allows many (even on this thread) to cherry-pick passages that support their own beliefs while ignoring others that don’t.
In other fields like science, we celebrate those whose view eventually won out. We assume their position prevailed for good reason. Why do you apply a different standard to theology?
What documentation do you have to show that Polycarp was edited by Iraneus?
Also – “He was also likely behind…” “Ignatius’ writings were officially edited on into a miasma of….” “The original work is likely from….” “and was probably rejected due to…”
You make an awful lot of unsubstantiated statements, Paul. At least one per paragraph.
What contemporary witness evidence do you have to support these claims?
Perry,
Thank you for asking. I’ll have the references you are referring to compiled later this weekend.
As far as the ‘different standard’ you say I’m using,…. having ‘won out’ should never be a standard for truth….. especially when it comes to things like Faith.
Science has observations, data and conclusions based on those factors. Faith doesn’t have that luxury. It is entirely subjective and often open to abuse by individuals and organizations that claim to speak for God. There is a reason there are so many religions and sects claiming to be the only path. That said, Faith is still far more powerful than anything we know. It is our only link to God, but we MUST tread carefully with the same objectivity as an honest scientist. Even if we find those answers shaking up some aspects of our own beliefs, that is part of the process. We begin to center on what is the core of Faith, Love, Charity, etc. and can more easily recognize those who have personal agendas using the language of faith.
Islam has the most adherents world-wide. Does that mean it’s the One True Faith?
Sufism as contemporary Zoroastrianism before it was integrated into Islam by the end of the 1st millenium predates all Christian sects. Does its longevity make it more true?
Communism by the 1980’s ruled over half the world’s population. Should we have thrown up our hands to celebrate that they had “won”?
I could go on, but I have a promise to keep to you on those references.
Your words communicate contempt for faith even as you try to sound like you respect it. The telltale sign is the way you use the word “likely.” You use it the same way atheists do. You proclaim Christian history to be a made-up story…. then you make up your own story.
Systematic theology and blind faith are not anywhere close to the same thing.
I’m not sure you really understand what theology is or what theologians do, or the amount of respect they have for recorded history and for the written word. In theology you don’t get to just say “what likely happened was….” You have to back up what you say with contemporary witnesses, not hundreds of years after the fact conjecture.
There’s a reason Gnosticism has fared very poorly in theology and it’s not because some mean guy snuffed it out 1800 years ago. It’s ALWAYS been around and it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.
There’s a reason the Gospel of Thomas etc etc have never been accepted. They’re flimsy, inconsistent and were written very, very late. There is no evidence that any significant number of early Christians respected those books.
Perry,
Regardless of your assessment of me or your inability to see my words as anything but contempt, I will still follow up with your request and my promise.
The Gospel of Thomas, et al I site are all part of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Written and preserved long before the Council of Nice and other ecumenical councils of the 2nd and 3rd centuries.
It doesn’t matter if you see them as “flimsy” or “inconsistent”. Doesn’t the Bible contain 2 distinctly different geneaologies of Jesus? 2 different Ten Commandments? Again, only the beginning. And I’ll include those chapters and verses if you need.
So by virtue of my inability to take “on faith” the benevolence or truth of many aspects of Church history, I am making things up?
The question is, Perry. When I give you those promised verses and references on Iraneus, Ignatius, Polycarp and Didache, will it lead you to look further into history? Or will your reaction be that I am an apostate and anything I site isn’t sufficiently Godly enough to coroborate?
I know too many people that became far better human beings because of their Faith in Christ. I’ve sited this before. And I know you to be a very hard working force of charity, comfort and redemption to those you come in contact with.
I also know a few who have used Faith as a shell for personal enrichment and elevated social status.
An overarching theme in what I do is simple, Perry. As children of God, there is a point where we can become less reliant on the words and directives of Priests and Preachers and Popes, and begin growing into a matured assurance that, yes, ‘my faith is stronger and more proactive than ever’. Or we can continue to be unsure, ‘unworthy’ or unwilling to reach out past what every zealous Christian, Muslim or Jew thinks is the One True path to God.
And the race is on … Were you all C.S.Lewis, J.R.Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien, Warnie Lewis, Coghill, et. al. types, sitting around this ‘Coffeehouse’ having a productive, yet heated, discussion, amid ‘yourselves’ along with a few enthusiasts of such a heady and deep debate, I would probably want to partake of the grand knowledge that ‘might’ be gleaned from this conversation.
I feel as though I stumbled into a chat that WAS relevant and helpful to many in discussing how to learn to perceive love and judgment through our Lord’s eyes. Something to patch up my beat down armor, a look in on a citizenry of like-minded seekers. Possibly, maybe I could contribute. Sure enough, God’s people here, hurt, seeking, giving, loving – down to the ground. Thank you Jesus!
Now it seems we have entered the world of endless debate of such information we can barely grasp the ‘entire’ truth of, in reality.
Let me just give you this few scriptures to back up my statement (although, I hope that I don’t offend anybody by ‘cherry picking a passage, and I mean that sincerely because that is also a pet peeve of mine):
1Ti 1:4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.
1Ti 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1Ti 1:6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,
1Ti 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
In my very humble (believe it or not) opinion, we can be certain of very little here on earth regarding the empirical facts of history. I am quite certain that Jesus lived, died for us and provided a home for us WITH HIM in His family home and is looking down upon us wishing for us to find better ways to spend our time. I am a voracious reader, and thinker. I think way too much, everyone says so who knows me. That is not my strength, that is my weakness. God is try to lead me towards the using of my gifts towards others. We can still study and think, and hypothesize but reach out to change the world for God. C.S., from everything I read, did just that, in his own ways.
Hope I’ve made a point without going off… God’s blessings on us all.
Absolutely good thinking stuff, Kathryne.
1st Timothy is one of my all time favorites. Especially:
“1Ti 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.”
I’ve long made the contention that Faith goes far beyond the need to look for proof or verification. Like Love, it cannot be seen, but is far more powerful than anything we can imagine. And it’s certainly more important than the outward things we so often seek to legitimize through the temporal.
To clarify, I am neither an Atheist or a Gnostic. I am someone who pursues Faith with a clear conscience and a heart that understands that, when faced with contradictions, the core of who we are can become even stronger and bring us closer to God.
If we choose to, we can also get caught up in the crossed wires of denial, shadow and compartmentalization when faced with those same contradictions.
Thank you for your insight.
Paul
Perry,
Below is a very brief synopsis that only represents a small portion of the alternate to orthodox Christian views.
If I see this published here I will ask if your readers would like more on this and other related subjects. Since pulling these together takes time and effort, I won’t delve into Polycarp, etc. until then.
Part 1: Josephus, et al
Let’s start with Origen. (Please take note that, although Origen was condemned as a heretic by the Roman Church in the 1400s, his name and standing as a founding father of the Church was reestablished by Pope Benedict in 2007)
Known as a Literalist, he was considered the most conscientious historian in early Christianity. Iraneus and Eusebius both quoted him liberally. Eusebius was a student and acolyte of Origen.
Origen sites certain passeges from Josephus in “Antiquities of the Jews” regarding uprisings of Jews who are followers of ‘Crestus’, a common name. He also cites the specific chapter and verse of these writings WITHOUT quoting any of the references to divinity that showed up in later versions of Josephus’ works.
Early Arabic and Syrian translations of “Antiquities…” are devoid of any of the same divinity claims and reflect Josephus’ famous contempt for all religious leaders, especially those claiming some kind of divinity.
Translations of his works from both early Hebrew and Eastern Orthodox sources brought out and debated in the 10th century are also consistent with the above mentioned texts.
Christians in Rome on record never quoted Josephus’ writings in reference to ‘Jesus, Iesus, Yeshua, Yehoshua or a Messiah James or Jacob until the 4th century, when Bishop Eusebius produced a ‘newly discovered’ version of “Antiquities..” that showed Josephus as suddenly enamoured with Jesus. Iraneus had commissioned this and dozens of other “translations” while Eusebius was still young.
On to Josephus….
A cursory reading of any translation of his works shows an even-handed contempt for any in the Jewish culture who were considered Messiahs. As a devout Jew himself, he constantly blames his bretheren for their own destruction at the hands of the Romans. Little surprise since Josephus regularly referred to the Roman Emperor Vespasian as the true Messiah.
(Read Gruber & Kersten (1985) and G.H. Wells (1975) ) Both point out that Josephus had only contempt for “Messiahs” and defined them as ‘frauds and bandits’ responsible for Jerusalem’s downfall.
The 1st Christian scholar to refute Josepus’ ‘Testimonium Flavianum’ reference to Jesus in “Antiquities…” was Herbert von Giffen (Giphanius) in his letters and lectures. Although von Giffen didn’t publish any of these, one of his students did.
(Sebastian Lepusculus – 1916 – pg. 350)
The oldest printed refutation of “Testimonium..” was by the historian Lucas Osiander in Epitomes Ecclesiast. #16, Chapter 7 (1552)
Next was Professor Sebastian Schnell in Epistulae Hist. et Philologie de Flavi Josephi Testimonio (1661)
Others:
Calvinist scholar Tanneugy LeFevre
Portuguese Rabbi Abraham Zacuto Lusitano ( a “converted” Marano Jew)
Historians….
Two Jewish historians who lived at the time of Jesus, Philo and Justus of Tiberius have much of their records intact. The former with about 52 works and who wrote extensively on History, Religion and Philosophy. The latter lived in Capernaium where Jesus was often quoted as visiting and staying.
Neither of them mention Jesus (or any of the Samaritan, Greek or Hebrew versions) as a contemporary figure. They DO regularly site Pontius Pilate, Herod, notorious criminals and major and minor Jewish priests.
Other non-Jewish writers at the time:
Arrian, Maritial, Appian, Dion Pruseus, Senecae, Plutarch, Pausanius, Apollonius, Pliny the Elder, Valerius Flaccus, Juvenal, Theon of Smyrna, Petronius, Florus Lucius, Ptolemy (and about a dozen others) NEVER mentioned Jesus (et al). They site often the new sects, presumably including early Christians.
Seutonius and Tacitus both wrote vague references to ‘troublesome Jews led by Crestus’ 50 years after the fact.
Roman record keeping….
Roman culture, and especially it’s governors and prelates, were fanatical record keepers. Minor offenses, petty criminals, civil and property matters were all recorded and sent to multiple sites. There isn’t a single record or mention of a Jesus (et al) being crucified by Pilate.
We were talking about Polycarp and your statements such as “Ignatius’ writings were officially edited on into a miasma of….” and I asked you for contemporary witnesses supporting your assertions.
And you answer with a long diatribe about Josephus.
I still await your response.
Perry,
Glad to research and post those subjects relating to Polycarp and Ignatius as I mentioned in my previous post.
I felt that a groundwork of context needed to be offered first. And choosing Josephus’ “Antiquities..” (since it is still the only source found or quoted by the Church) was a way to provide a background.
Since I brought up Origen, Iraneus, Eusebius and a number of other contemporary and more modern historians, I’m baffled why you only saw my reply as a complaint on Josephus.
The only request I would ask you to consider is one that Katheryne Ankney has wisely suggested. Create a new thread. Anne Rice’s decision has little or nothing to do with early Church history.
Paul, Thank you for your Apr. 16th response to me regarding 1Timothy. Unfortunately, it seems I left you with the thought that I am indeed ‘not’ supportive of research and debate and that is not so. IF it were possible, and as much as it CAN be possible, to support conjecture and word-of-mouth history (which calls for faith), I am entirely FOR it. But, to debate these things endlessly, as if they are fact on this very interesting and what appears to be a designated thread seems frivolous and a bit of a sad example to those who have come here. Please forgive me, I ask of anyone I may be offending. Again, I am reminded of scripture:
Ecclesiastes 1: 15 What is crooked cannot be made straight,
and what is lacking cannot be counted.
16 I said in my heart, “I have acquired great wisdom, surpassing all who were over Jerusalem before me, and my heart has had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.” 17 And I applied my heart to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a striving after wind.
18 For in much wisdom is much vexation,
and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow.
This scripture speaks intimately to my heart. I am the one in Bible studies, probably like now, opening my big mouth, making people uncomfortable. Maybe, I have taken this whole thing way out of context? The information you all are talking about (religious oriented) is very interesting and informative, but seems displaced and confusing here. This is not my ‘Coffeehouse’, but Perry’s, so I will let this be the last of my opinion on the subject. It is just sad to see so much tension and argument in one of the very places where we seek the ‘Creator’s’ viewpoint.
Respectfully,
Kathryne
Forgot to include this quote from Anne Rice which helps make my point:
“For those who care, and I understand if you don’t: Today I quit being a Christian … It’s simply impossible for me to ‘belong’ to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group.”
Dear Paul,
My claim is not based on hearsay. Records have it. The present head of the Catholic Church, Pope Benedict XVI is the 265th Bishop of Rome.
Of course many non Catholics will dispute this. But they must present their historical records to prove their claims.
You may be correct that the first Christians are more Gnostic than Catholic. The Church then was not a fragmented Church. It was a people who desperately wanted to believe in a God different from the pagan gods . It was only one Church, one people following Christ. It was only when heresies and schisms surfaced that there was need to label the Christians as either Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Protestant, Lutheran, etc. to distinguish what “christian” faith they believe in. How sad for a God to die for what Perry said as a “fractious and quarrelsome” people who cannot unite under His name.
Constantino
You may want to look further into those facts of yours. I don’t mean to disparage your beliefs, but you should consider a few things.
Israel at the time was well integrated into Greek culture and religious beliefs. Participation in the Jewish Faith was falling off rapidly. A Messiah was needed to both unite the Israelites against the Romans, it also had to be a Messiah who could relate to both prcticing Jews and Jews practicing the Greek systems of belief. Rome had only recently taken hold of the area, but it became a catalyst for rebellion.
A pagan savior from Egyptian, Persian, Babylonian, Macedonian and Greek traditions was born on Dec. 25th with 3 magi or shepherds present, performed miracles (water to wine at a wedding is the most common), was resurrected and offered his body and blood as a communion with God.
This is only the beginning.
If you think the Catholic Church is the only legit one based on its longevity, the Ethiopian Christian Eboinites (still practicing today) have the Church of Rome beat by about 90 years.
I could go on. But because I acknowledge these things doesn’t mean I don’t have faith. I just don’t have it in a specific book, church or fellowship. And this is exactly why I defend Anne Rice from the critics on this site who are sure they have her pegged.
There are enough historical references showing how the 2nd & 3rd century Church under Constantine (et al) incorporated heavily from pagan beliefs in order to get enough public support to establish itself as the official State religion.
The references are all there, most of them pre-date the 1st century. “Ask and you shall receive”.
Dear Paul,
The legitimacy of the Roman Catholic Church is not based on its longevity but in its traceability to its founder, Jesus Christ.
Constantino
Paul,
“Based on studies of the Dead Sea Scrolls…” The Dead Sea Scrolls are largely believed to have been written by a Jewish sect (the Essenes), not early Christians. Compared to the central message of Jesus Christ, the scrolls have little bearing on what “the earliest Christians” believed. As Perry suggested, if you wish to understand the early Christians, seek out their own writings, not the scrolls, many which were written before Christ was even born.
“I could just as easily accept on Faith that the Gospel of Thomas or Mary Magdalene is the defining creed of Christianity.” Could you? In that case, you’d not only be going against Catholic beliefs, but the beliefs of essentially all Protestant churches as well, i.e. going against what has defined a Christian for the past 2 millennia. I’m assuming you don’t accept on Faith these Gospels because they are not considered God’s Word, as defined as the Bible. In this case, in a sense, you do accept on Faith a core belief of the Catholic Church -the Bible’s cannon- as it was the Catholic Church, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that codified in the 3rd century which books would be in the Bible. And it was Catholics who preserved and transcribed it for over a thousand years, until Martin Luther arrived in the 16th century.
Constantino is right when stating that Catholics are the original Christians. Don’t get me wrong, I have the greatest respect for all my Christian brothers. But only the Catholic Church can claim direct apostolic succession from Peter on down. The early Christians believed in the importance of apostolic succession: there are several passages in Acts where the apostles would “lay their hands” on those they’d choose to help spread the Good News (i.e. not anyone could simply read Scripture and start preaching, they were appointed). These new appointees would in turn lay their hands on those who succeeded them, and so forth. This unbroken “chain of command” is the foundation of the Catholic Church today.
“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, [that] there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore… they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry….” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).
“True knowledge is [that which consists in] the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither receiving addition nor curtailment; and [it consists in] reading [the word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy; and [above all, it consists in] the pre-eminent gift of love… which excels all the other gifts [of God].” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:33:8 (A.D. 180).
Dear Christian,
You have expounded well on the legitimacy of the Roman Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church has great respect to all separated brethren even the non-christians. She does not condemn them but prays for them. You can hear these prayers in their Liturgy of the Mass. The Roman Catholic church is misunderstood because she would not compromise her doctrines just to appease all christians. She tries hard to keep the teachings received from the apostles through the scriptures and traditions intact and pure. She tries to avoid pan-christianism which would result in amalgamation of true and false beliefs.
The Vatican II Council is the proof of the sincerity of the Roman Catholic Church to reach out to all christians. Protestants and Orthodox contributed to the documents produced in that council.
I wish that all christians would really study the Church from within,not from the outside because the cloud of biases and prejudices will only preclude objectivity.
Constantino
constantino
Dear Paul,
Let us not call this forum a debate but exchange of information and ideas so that our knowledge on spiritual and religious matters is expanded and our faith edified. This forum also exercises our intellect and challenges us to research.
Constantine the Great did not embrace christianity until his deathbed. His magnanimity to the christians was, I believe, only a show of gratitude for his victory over his rivals brought about by his vision of the cross. “In Hoc Signus Vinces”. After his victory all he wanted was peace and stability for his empire and that peace and stability was always threatened by the pagans’ bias if not hatred for christians. He might as well legalize the christianity and make it the state religion so no more quarrels arise. After all, he witnessed how christians love each other and were more productive for the empire. It was victory for the christians to be legalized. If Constantine hadn’t, the world may still be pagan today. Constantine did not paganize the Church, as some non-catholic say. The Church christianized Constantine and pagan Rome and most pagan tribes in Europe and America. If you can observe how obstinately dogmatic and over protective of her teachings and doctrines the Catholic Church is, it is not easy to conclude that she will not compromise truth for convenience or for public relations. If she did not accept the gospels other than the four in the bible, it is for the cause of truth.
The Catholic Church does not need to claim legitimacy. She just states what history has recorded. Only us, the catholics, claim legitimacy when challenged to do so. As for Mormons, JW and other claimants, their claims are based on wild imaginations.
Scholarly approach to such claims may help illuminate those who seek truth.
Constantino
Thank you Perry,
For sharing your pain that comes from the limited perspective judgment of others and how you and your family struggled through it. It can be very difficult to refrain from judging and condemning those who judge us or those we love. We must follow the words of Christ to not judge lest we be judged, since we don’t have the divine perspective and mercy.
Thank you. I am glad the Anne Rice has her knowledge and testimony of Christ. The struggle is not over.
Wow Perry!
Thank you so much for your words. They have really hit home. My wife lives with a bipolar disorder and we feel that in our church, only our pastor is equipped intellectually and has the generosity of spirit to be our friend. I have my own challenges, of course but I couldn’t talk about them even on your blog. Let alone to anyone in our church. My wife and I have a rock solid relationship because of our Lord. Our church is where we go to hear from Him. Period.
Best regards,
Michel, the debonair French Canadian
Keep persevering. Great to hear from ya, and blessings to your wife.
Gosh Perry
That was an article with incredible spiritual depth!!
You are right of course. Forgiveness above all else. When you always forgive, there is no need to break away, stay away, or form another ‘rival’ group.
The actual God sent lesson, is to stay together in our minds and hearts via forgiveness.
Perry, you are a huge encouragement to do the right thing.
I’ve passed this on to my wife who for some reason can forgive me for my stupidity (you know what I mean), but has a harder time forgiving snobbery among the wealthier and/or more socially adept women at our church.
Your Orthodox friend has an interesting point. My antecedents were Mennonites and were hounded all over Europe until the early 20th century.
For some reason, I think it’s in my DNA to always choose the minority opinion (fear of being wrong/fear of getting too close to people who will see the real me). Even within the minority (assuming Christianity is now the minority), I always seem to find an even smaller minority to be a member of.
However, God has instilled in me, as I’ve gotten older, more tolerance/grace for opinions or activities I don’t agree with. There is still right and wrong, but Romans 14 gives a wide latitude to what is allowable, cautioning us mainly to be sensitive to weaker brothers.
I am sending this post to all my friends…keep up the excellent and thought-provoking posts. Love ya man!