10 years ago someone said to me, “These days you may not even know your next door neighbor, but you exchange emails with your buddy in South Africa twice a week.” I looked out the window at the house next to mine – barely knew the neighbors – and yes I was sitting there sending emails to someone in some far-off country.
Every week I get on conference calls and say hi to everyone and barely think twice about the fact that I’ve got 17 people from Texas, four from Perth, one from Amsterdam, one in Alaska, one in Lebanon.
Ever heard Thomas Friedman’s “McDonalds theory of world peace”? He observes that with only one exception, no two countries with a McDonalds have ever gone to war with each other.
Can you imagine, say, the US going to war with Australia? Think of all the emails the senators and congressmen would get: “Hey, stop trying to kill my customers! And by the way, here’s a list of 115 blogs from people who are trapped in the Siege of Sydney right now!”
The world is truly a strange and wonderful place. Just before I went on a trip, I loaded the first season of The Dukes of Hazzard on my video iPod so my 10 year old son would have something to watch while we trucked down Interstate 80.
That TV show ran in 1979 – the year that *I* was 10 years old. I said to Laura, “Who would’ve thought that 25 years later you’d be able to download an entire season of the Dukes of Hazzard onto a device that’s half the size of a pack of cigarettes, and our kids would watch it in the car with headphones and a 2″ screen?” We shake our heads in amazement.
OK, so what does all this have to do with spirituality?
Equality and technology… They have everything to do with spirituality.
Let’s start with equality.
The United States Declaration of Independence makes a world-shattering declaration that transformed the modern world:
“We hold these things to be self-evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, among which are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”
In his book “Democracy in America” (1835) Alexis de Tocqueville carefully traces this statement and its idea of equality backward through history and lands at Galatians 3:28, the words of St. Paul:
“In Christ there is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free. All are equal in Christ Jesus.”
Before Paul said this, no one had ever made such a bold and sweeping statement. No one. Not the Jews or Babylonians, not the Egyptians, not the Greeks, not the Chinese. The concept of equality came first from Paul.
This idea got planted in western civilization and began to grow and develop, little by little dismantling slave trade, sowing the seeds for democracy and spurring technological and political progress. Tocqueville says that from 1100 AD to the present, every major development led to more equality, not less. The Magna Carta. The invention of the horseshoe. The invention of the gun and the post office and the printing press and democracy.
If you live in a democracy and you’re thankful for the ability to vote, if you’re thankful that people generally consider you and themselves to be just as good as anybody else, then thank Paul. And his Rabbi, Jesus.
Because – despite what the Declaration says – equality really is NOT self evident. At least it wasn’t to any of the ancient world prior to 2000 years ago. On the surface, we’re all different. Some are stronger. Some are smarter. Some have more money. Some are politically connected. Some are more savvy.
And some people get the scraps.
You have no principle to guide you but winners and losers. Which, divorced from any overriding sense of equality or individual dignity, is a cruel master.
But when Paul said this, he was declaring that there is an underlying *spiritual* reality, that yours and my true identity doesn’t come from accomplishments or money or power but from our Heavenly Father. That once we know that true identity we’re no longer slaves to money and power and accomplishments and the ‘natural’ order of things.
If you’re thankful that Western Civilization today considers all people to be intrinsically equal, be thankful that a young couple in Bethlehem gave birth to a baby who was to become the most loved, most hated, most argued about, most written about, most influential person in the history of the world. One who taught that the greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. One in whom there is no male or female, no Jew nor Greek, no slave nor free.
So then how about technology?
Science itself is, at its core, a presumption of discoverable underlying order. A belief, an assumption (which cannot be proven in advance, by the way) that when an apple falls from a tree it does so because of some law of nature that caused it to do so. That there was a string of cause and effect that can be traced back to explain why this happened.
The apple did not fall from the tree because, say, Zeus was having a snit with Apollo and that’s why there was the lightning storm which is why there was a wind that caused the apple to swing back and forth and fall from the tree…. no, it happened for rational discoverable reasons. That God made a world which could operate consistently on its own without Him constantly making corrections from the outside.
So far as I can tell, the inspiration for this belief first came from Wisdom of Solomon 11:21:
“Thou hast ordered all things in measure and number and weight.”
(The Protestants omitted that book, but our Catholic friends thankfully left it in.)
If a scientist does not presume that there is a rational reason for what he is about to investigate, there is nothing for him to investigate at all. Belief in rationality comes from belief in a rational God. A God who wants us to discover His universe. For whom such discovery is an act of worship.
If you read the history of science over the last 500 years, the only reason science succeeded in the West – after getting started but failing in Greece, Rome, China, Egypt and in the Arab world – is that Christian theology understood God to have created the universe to operate according to fixed discoverable laws. Theology made that prediction, then people had a philosophical basis for having a scientific method.
In his fascinating book “The Victory of Reason” historian Rodney Stark further explains that the forward march of technology began after the fall of the Roman Empire and has marched steadily forward ever since. Equality implied that slavery was wrong, so people had to develop technology in order to free their slaves and still get the work done.
So… part of the inspiration for inventions like water wheels was a belief in dignity and freedom and the rights of the individual.
Technology is supposed to empower people, not enslave them. Because, as Paul said, in Christ, all are equal.
If you trace these ideas back through history, equality and technology and even iPods and Democracy have everything to do with our very beliefs about the universe and about God. And yes, even Jesus.
Case in point: it’s politically incorrect to say “Merry Christmas” cuz it’s too religious. Instead you get a tepid, watered down “Happy Holidays.”
It’s because Christ is offensive. When a guy smashes his thumb with a hammer, he doesn’t say “Krishna” or “Buddha,” he says Jesus Christ. Because that’s the most loaded, most powerful word in the English language.
There’s no name you can invoke that’s more powerful than the Son of God.
~~~
Do you know what the most important invention in the history of the world was?
It wasn’t the computer. And it sure wasn’t the light bulb or the telephone. (Or even the electronic voting machine.)
It was the printing press.
In 1445, Johannes Gutenberg invented the world’s first movable type printing press. He didn’t know it, but he was unleashing a revolution that continues to this day. Even the mighty Internet in the 21st century is just an extension of Gutenberg’s original, revolutionary machine.
The first book he printed was the Bible. And that led to controversy, too, because Luther translated it into German, the people’s language, instead of Latin, the lingo of the religious elite.
Suddenly, ordinary folks could not only afford a copy, but they could read it for themselves instead of getting some guy’s slanted interpretation. Soon the cat was out of the bag–there were copies scattered all over Europe.
It’s no coincidence that the scientific enlightenment and industrial revolution began in earnest within 50 years of this. Not that it wasn’t already underway (it had already gathered considerable momentum) but now that ordinary folks had access to knowledge and the freedom to pursue it, the possibilities were limitless.
The printing press took the handcuffs off of knowledge and spirituality, and the world has never been the same. Equal access to knowledge empowered people everywhere, and it was only natural that the Renaissance, and in time, democracy too would follow.
Every year at Christmas we celebrate the person who inspired these revolutions. Jesus’ teachings were radical and scandalous. He claimed to be the Son of God. He said he would rise from the dead, and according to the historical accounts, he did. He stepped into the world and split time in half: BC and AD. And his words still resonate throughout the earth today.
Still rolls the stone from the grave.
In the spirit of what Jesus taught us, I hope that you’ll use our 21st century printing press, the Internet, to not enslave but empower individuals. To bring more equality, to make the world a better place for your fellow man.
Thanks for reading.
Perry Marshall
Mr Martin, I am surprised you sound very well informed about physical nature of our universe and yet so naive to fall into atheistic dogmas like those of Mr. Bill Davison. Are you one of those Bill calls shallow minds? Play back the children’s game of Cause and Effect from wherever you are and tell me where it will end. And making Bill Davison your authority on non existence of God proves to me you are also as shallow minded as Bill. Non of your reasons can prove to me that everything that exists came about by itself or by chance! Being scared of heavenly objects in order to deal with life’s daily problems sounds as if you already know where life came from! Saying God does not exist and admitting that “Nature instructs all of Life to reproduce” (Bill), is a total contradiction. Call it nature, we call it God!
Admiring the wonders of our planetary system and the universe at large (Martin), and concluding that God does not exist because Bill Davison said so sounds very very very absurd. It is like a passenger in an aeroplane shouting that AEROPLANES DO NOT EXIST! What will other passengers think of him? Crazy, isn’t it?
Hi Fraternus, Please read my post again. You will find I denounced Mr Davison’s views in a rather sarcastic way. I hope my last post explains my thoughts.
Fraturnus – What is wrong with stating that ‘Nature instructs all of life to reproduce’?
Where have I ever stated that ‘God does not exist’. I just don’t think it worth the bother of considering. Have you ever had a word with HIM upstairs.
Have you enquired of HIM why one quarter of a million poor souls perished in the Haiti earthquake (that’s only one of a myriad of catastrophies to affect human life). HE’s playing a mighty peculiar game!
I’d just like to know why we are expected to consider any of the fictitious Gods that were dreamed up in Man’s early childhood, having far less knowledge of the Universe than we have now. As we live, we should learn. Time allows us to get our thoughts in reasonable order. You seem very reluctant to leave the PAST behind.
As previously stated, ‘Of necessity, we MUST profit from it, not PERPETUATE it!’
Every ‘normal’ person is aware of the difference between right & wrong. Where doubts exist, evidential communal common sense must be appled. Ethics evolve quite naturally. No need for instruction from any unknowable Essence!
Keep your feet on the ground, Fraturnus. Do not allow yourself the luxury of spreading Transcendental Tripe & use the common sense that any ‘normal’ person was born with. Illusory thought needs to be kept in order. All religious ‘Faiths’ are pure HUMBUG – false & tedious!
Common Sense is all one needs
Not passe’ – shrouded – Man-made creeds
Common Sense ??? – Get off thy perch
Use everyday knowhow – plus research!
To Bill Davison, Martin Ward and Fraternus Lyimo. Bill and Martin, both of you are reasoned, well spoken, logical and intelligent men. Also both have a good understanding of the Bible, Science and Religion. Of course all of us can be emotional at times, it is easy to write before rechecking the other person’s post for example and then hitting the send button quickly. Like I said before, I see no reference to Bill saying he denied God, however Bill’s theme seems to be that “Religions” are man made and not particularly trustworthy. Martin, you and Bill are much closer in thinking than you first thought after judging both of your latest responses. There isn’t as much emotion in these last ones, a much better civility too. Fraternus, English is sometimes a frustrating experience so hang in there. Martin was really criticising Bill’s view in a sarcastic way rather than the way you thought that Martin was a disbeliever in God. So again you and Martin agree on this issue also. But in the end, Bill’s stance on man and religion is a valid one which would be good if all involved here on this blog could reasonably work on a bit more. By the way, why are we all here anyway on this blog? We wouldn’t be here if there wasn’t a common attraction to the topic. Thanks to all three of you, Best Regards, CanadaNorth
Anthony – The main reason I’m here on this blog is that I find the subject of Religiosity very amusing – always have.
At the ripe old age of 89 years, I look for light entertainment to break up my other interests, music, DIY & the perusal of science literature.
Martin’s views were recognised as a trifle sarcastic, but I’m sure he recognizes my contribution of common sense as much more authentic than any so-called ‘Faith’.
Mankind has been profoundly caught – In devious realms of religious thought
One needs understand it’s institution – & follow through it’s evolution
In primeval times – long gone – Man deified Idol & Icon
& once begun – That ‘Godly Grind’ – Nested within a receptive mind.
Inevitably – – – In those early years of Man – The reign of CHARLATAN began
Claiming insight without proof – & saddling Man with ONE BIG SPOOF
Bill, your posts don’t sound like the thoughts of an agnostic, rather a ranting atheist like those predatory atheists who lurk on infidels.com or about.com. The reason why most of us study this subject is because it’s probably the most important question ever. Imagine if the New Testament were true. It would give a sense of purpose and meaning to this largely joyless bland existence. Imagine if God exists, he has a plan for us. We will be united with our loved ones who have died, we will continue our existence in His realm, that’s Heaven or Paradise or some similar wonderful place. Now I don’t have the foggiest idea whether that’s true but I prefer to have an open mind on it. I have read a lot of stuff by philosophers, Intelligent Design theorists, scientists, rank atheists, you name it and I can tell you one thing, the arguments from theist thinkers are a lot more compelling than from the atheists. I am not talking about the head in the clouds religious happy clappy dreamers and wishful thinking emotional believers, I am talking about critical thinking people with minds greater than mine. When I read what they say I don’t see emotional fools. However when I read Dawkins who seems to have an unnatural relationship with Darwin, or Hitchens who spounts unintelligible old Etonian gibberish, or Atkins the arrogant academic who’s philosophical argument is shallow in the extreme, I read nothing that is convincing. What I see are people who cannot imagine a supernatural element to the universe. Anything is preferable to supernaturalism. How can a God possibly exist? It’s that incredulity that drives them. All that mind-boggling biological complexity and conscious life had to come about by blind accident. Doesn’t that require as much ‘faith’ as belief in a supernatural explanation? The evidence for intelligence in the universe is not some dreamed up nebulous aspiration, it’s solid and compelling.
Martin,
I’ve been exchanging emails with atheists for 7 years, as a result of this website and the email series. I have had thousands of conversations with people from nearly every country in the world and every major belief system.
NO ONE argues with more religious zeal, passionate conviction, faith in unprovable assumptions and outright insecurity as the New Atheists. No one – not even close.
There is a quiet but sizable contingent of “older atheists” who cringe at the strident obnoxious intolerant behavior, arrogance and bigotry that characterizes atheism in the 21st century.
Muslims are typically stereotyped as belligerent and militant. I actually have a hard time thinking of any Muslim I’ve conversed with who was actually that way. Most Muslims are polite, respectful and genuine and I find them to be mostly very likable.
Atheists are militant and belligerent in spades. Never have I met a group of people shouting louder with their fingers in their ears than atheists. They are over-the-top extremists. They are angry, bitter, and utterly obsessed. They cannot stop thinking about God, talking about God, rehearsing all the reasons why God cannot possibly exist.
They hang out on discussion boards hiding behind screen names, insulting people under the cover of anonymity. They vandalize science and they vandalize Amazon with shallow 1-star reviews of books they’ve never read. For the most part atheists are cowards, vicariously living their lives through Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.
I remember one atheist website – I’m sure you could easily find it – had an article titled “What a Friend We Have in Dawkins” – a reference to the hymn “What a Friend We Have in Jesus.” The article was just as solemn and reverent as the Christian song.
When you actually discuss real math, real cause and effect, real questions in philosophy, real empirical science and real verifiable results, the only way they can win any argument is to change the subject to their own caricature of some religion so they can cast a few more insults. Atheists are great at offense but eventually you find they have no defense. Infidels is 15,000 pages of rage and vitriol and circular logic.
All you really have to do to dismantle atheism is pick up any atheist book and analyze the logic paragraph by paragraph as a logician would. It crumples under scrutiny. Just keep pressing the atheist to answer your question and eventually he’ll disappear. His belief system is driven by pure emotion – anger, rebellion and personal vanity.
The New Atheism is nothing but a form of not-so-sophisticated idolatry. In 2010 it is the most brittle and insecure of all belief systems. It will someday remembered with rolling eyes and derision, much as we discuss the communist paranoia McCarthyism of the 1950’s.
Perry Marshall
Perry – Just read your diatribe above re Atheism. I myself do not ascribe to any label even tho their views are very similar to mine. I just can’t conceive of some kindly supernatural Essence guiding each & every one of us along the path of righteousness. Use your head Perry. The thought is utterly ludicrous.
My website entitled “What a Wonderful World” gives a true factual picture of how Religiosity in all it’s forms came about. From Witch Doctors & Sorcerers to Archbishops & Popes. Makes much more sense of this matter than any silly pious religion ever could.
Far too much reverence is devoted to the abstract of religiosity.
Bill Davison – The name I was given almost 90 years ago!
Perry. I couldn’t agree with you more. Every time I argue with atheists on the web, they are the most eager to hurl insults and derision without using clear logic. I also agree that atheism will one day, and probably not too far in the distant future, be regarded as an anachronism resulting from the half truths that Darwin discovered.
I recently had an argument with Nick Lane, or one of his defenders (always hard to tell on the web). He’s a British Biochemist who is trying to become the new Richard Dawkins. He wrote a book called Life Ascending: The ten great inventions of evolution. Thee’s some good stuff in there, but when it comes to DNA, like so many atheists, he is hopelessly clueless and lost. His argument on one page states the greatest paradox of life, how the code for amino acids is contained in a language of nucleic acids, and the apparent impossibility of this, then writes a few pages of fantasy about deep sea vents, without ever stating how the code could truly form (only describing relationships), then declares the problem solved.
This is the ultimate tactic of atheists. They use scientific language to befuddle the masses, but for those who have a good understanding of the subject, their lack of genuine explanantions is blindingly obvious. They use the science of the gaps all the time, “There is no God, so it happened by natural means” instead of focusing on describing the problem correctly and trying to identify realistic solutions. Of course, when it comes to DNA, as you so eloquently demonstrate, there is only one solution…intelligence.
To: Mikhail Dvortsov, Mikhail, I am really curious why you told Perry Marshall to please stop sending messages and then you go on at some length to continue on with the discussion. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy hearing your view, however if you really, truly did not want to hear from Mr. Marshall would you not just sort your incoming e-mails your delete file? Just asking, explain it if you want, it would be very interesting to see your response to this querie. Also I am not a practising Christian at all, so do not think I am on Perry’s side of thought, but I do find Perry’s views interesting. Best Regards, CanadaNorth
I would rather dwell in the house of the Lord then to hear the wicked going against Him. The world is filled with evil and wicked men and we know it is a fallen world. But there are also beautiful people, who need to be protected with our loving God’s grace and peace to overcome any circumstances that the human mind might not be able to comprehend. What can I do without God, the maker of everything? I can only belief in him than myself.
Aileen – One needs to keep in mind the Reality of Life in all it’s forms. The wicked are produced along with the beautiful by the same power, call it God or Nature.
With almost limitless mutations possible, nature will continue to produce individuals with characteristics of an exceedingly complex gradation & in a myriad of aspects eg
Brilliant to Thick – Jovial to Morose – Benign to Sadistic – Hetero to Homo – ad inf
Religions provide a very accessible dump for the perceived guilt generated by the various indiscretions to which ALL of Humankind MUST be victim. The evolution of Life can not be fault-free. We learn as we live. Forgiveness from on high is a concept that is, quite evidently, LUDICROUS in the extreme!
Some of Nature’s faults would appear to be incurable. Authority just has to face that fact & take the most appropriate action in each particular case.
Nature, red in tooth & claw, is pitilessly indifferent to an individual’s quality of life. Those gifted with a degree of ‘normalcy’ just have to bear with the ill-starred & scallywags that abound. Life can be, & is indeed, RAW.
Witness recent events – a quarter of a million souls dispensed with in the Haiti earthquake – no doubt that among them were many decent & beautiful people.
I’ve no wish to be rude, my dear, but you must be living in a land of dreams!
******************
Martin – I reject your accusation of being a ranting atheist. Years ago, prior to composing my essay, I was not at all familiar with the word atheist. I would much prefer to reject labels of any form.
What you read in that essay of mine is of pure experience of life, after listening to the affected rantings of various ‘Faith’ leaders. The chasing up by Jehovah’s Witnesses really got my goat. So much so, upon retirement, I decided to delve into this Religiosity lark a bit more deeply than I would have intended.
After serious thought, it became quite obvious that these religious people knew as much about a God as I did – damn all!
All sheer Impostors, using the credulous naivety of people who are understandably reluctant to ditch the ingrained ‘beliefs’ passed down through the generations via similarly programmed forebears.
Children should be reared from birth without the need for pestilential ‘beliefs’. Minds of the young are as sponges, readily absorbing info, authentic or fallacious. Allow them to judge this ancient anomaly in adulthood, using the common sense any ‘normal’ person developes through life.
I liken religiosity to the poison of smoking. Start early with the drug & it’s difficult to get rid of.
Martin, you live using that quality of common sense. Everyone does. Can’t manage without it. Your sanctimonious ramblings are products of your mind’s illusions.
Spiritualism is a functon of the mind that transcends common sense. ‘Fantasial’ thought. Most people indulge in it. Sensible people recognize it for what it really is.
We will never know the whole story of how we came into being. Darwin seems to me to have the most logical practical ideas of how life has come about & developed. The rag-bag of religious & transcendental flummery does nothing to enlighten our ignorance.
‘Beliefs’ were surely born of ignorance & a fear of the unknown. With this realization, why can’t we all recognize simple facts & treat all ‘Faiths’ of today as ever they really were – Dogmatic preservations of irrational early thought!
Martin – Please peruse my web-site honestly. I defy you to gainsay any of it. Purely rational statements. No ranting – mere FACTS!
With a little ‘poetry’ thrown in for fun! All free!
Well Bill if that isn’t rant I don’t know what is! As far as my sanctimonious ramblings are concerned you clearly haven’t defined the nuance of my posts. I am merely asking questions. I am not making catagorical assertions, I am just reflecting on and questioning the evidence we have and others posters views with regard to that. I am not preaching theism or atheism.
Nor I Martin. My essay is a common sense assessment of matters as they’ve evolved.
Your opinions of such people as Darwin – Dawkins etc shows that you have little opinion of the pure mental effort required to winkle out the mysteries of the Cosmos. Do the the likes of Einstein also elicit the same disdain? You’re way off beam Martin!
It strikes me that you have a definite leaning towards proving something supernatural. Reading your posts, I’m left with the strong impression that you refuse to accept reality as it is. You’re looking for something that resides in fantasyland, impossible to find.
You’re definitely not a practical person. I regard Humankind as just another animal, nothing all THAT special, the latest evolvement of life – with a superior brain.
It’s the workings of that brain, capable of an astounding performance in any of a multitude of directions that can give rise to many anomalies.
I get sick of repeating the obvious. Everyone is infected with an imaginative ‘Spiritual’ tendency that is ‘merely’ the natural wonderment of our existence & surroundings.
We live, utilising facts that the experience of life plus research provides. Please don’t complicate matters with transcendental thought. We’ve enough on our plates!
Bill,
There is no need to make personal attacks such as “You’re definitely not a practical person.” Such posts will be deleted. Thanks.
Perry – I am a very thoughtful person. I believe in saying what I regard as predominently true. With regard to the person I was addressing, I cannot come to any other conclusion.
I respect all persons, whatever their views, but one must, in the nature of things, endeavour to right what one considers to be, erroneous thought. If you feel obliged to delete such mild comments, that is your prerogative.
I cannot do anything other than state what I think is so obvious that it should not have to be said.
Transcendental views do not produce valid arguments in this practical World of ours. As I’ve stated many times before, elemental reasoning must be applied to give all ‘fantasial’ thought a true perspective.
Can Martin really conceive of a way in which we can ever understand consciousness? I’m afraid he’s dealing here with another of the Infinities that I’ve mentioned earlier in my posts – viz
The Atom’s basic constituent & Space’s ultimate extent; the latter of course associated with Time.
The understanding of consciousness is totally beyond Man’s capabilities. Supernatural thought will NEVER allow us to improve on the pragmatic concepts such as Darwin’s on evolution.
May I inform Martin that I can see a lot further than the end of my nose. I can visualize the extent to which it is possible to go before we fall over the edge into supernatural silliness.
Could you please position this post to cover the latest comments by Martin. Saves having to repeat it.
I just read the article by Anne O’Brien Rice author of Jesus Out Of Egypt.
What a scholarly journey she has made in her search for the truth about Jesus. It just goes to show us that scripture is always right, “ask and it shall be given…seek and ye shall find…knock and it shall be opened unto you…”; she did all of these things.
I am sure she has or will come to the simple conclusion that it is her faith, the gift of God to us all who possess it, and not the quest or the hard work of we ourselves that answered it all for her. As Psalm 100 teaches us, “…it is He that has made us and not we ourselves…we are His people, the sheep of His pasture…”. And this Psalm is even more relevant to this subject when we know just how stupid sheep are !!
In conclusion, all Anne or anyone of us can do is to , “…enter in to His gates with thanksgiving and into to His courts with praise…be thankful unto Him and bless His Name…for the Lord is good, His mercy is everlasting;
and His truth endures unto all generations!!!
As Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man can come to the Father except by Me…”
OR
Without Truth, there is no God. Skeptics, as Pilot asked Jesus, “What is truth?”. Well, skeptics, if you don’t know the answer to that question, you will live forever in the black hole created for those who refuse the Light of God’s revelation in creation, in His Holy prophets of old, the chosen people of God, the Jews; then, the eye witness testimony of the apostles and disciples, the writings of Paul, Peter and John the Revelator. The testimony of God Himself to all who have eyes to see and ears to hear…”
The black hole won’t be much different than what skeptics, agnostics and atheists are already experiencing…their questions will just go unanswered for eternity…a long, long day without hours, minutes, seconds; no days or months or years; no light of moon or sun; only the unanswered question,
“What is truth?”.
Bill, The reason why I treat Dawkins et al cursorily is because they don’t have a compelling argument. If you criticize people for looking for a supernatural explanation and not ‘accepting reality as it is’ then I have to say you are blinkered in your outlook. You are not looking further than your nose. It’s blatantly clear that ‘reality’ as you put it doesn’t have a hope in explaining some phenomena. Take consciousness as an example. We might be likened to a biological machine, a mere collection of protein molecules, but a machine isn’t conscious. A CD player doesn’t enjoy the music that it plays. When scientists examine brain tissue they cannot see anything that suggests consciousness. The area of the brain associated with consciousness looks the same as any other area, a collection of tissues and neurons. There is no ‘natural’ indication how consciousness arises. As far as I am aware science knows of no matter or material that generates a totally different kind of matter or medium e.g. protein molecules generating consciousness. I don’t see anything reprehensible about looking for the possibility of a supernatural explanation especially in view of the fact that your sacred ‘reality’ has failed miserably to explain it.
Bill, all respect to you mate but you are very much like the aggressive atheists Perry speaks of. You just cannot and will not accept the possibility that there could be a supernatural explanation to life. Is such a possibilty anti-science? Of course not. Science seeks the truth. Dawkins is so obsessed with science that science is his God. He speaks as if science created life and the universe. Science created nothing, it is the method by which we seek the truth. Dawkins and the like continually bleat that just because we don’t have a natural explanation now doesn’t mean we never will and speak of the God of the gaps. Well we know infinitely more now than Darwin and Victorian scientists knew. They were almost medieval compared with our knowledge today but has science confirmed a natural explanation for DNA or consciousness or how complex multi-part co-dependent biological systems evolved from accidental mutations in DNA? Far from it. And I don’t reckon it ever will. The more you analyse it the more a naturalistic explanation requires as much faith as a supernatural explanation.
Martin,
Thank you for drawing my attention to your reply. I can’t say very much in response, because one of the scientists you named has written a lot, which counters your position – Richard Dawkins. If you refuse to read his books, because he does not believe in your god (there are many to choose from, after all), then you cannot write that there is no evidence for how “consciousness, DNA, and complex multi-part co-dependent biological systems evolved” when it’s staring you in the face, if you’d just open his books. Read not only Dawkin’s books “The Ancestors’ Tale” and “The Greatest Show on Earth” but read Stephen Pinker’s books about the brain. Have a look at http://www.talkorigins.org, too, for great information about biology and complex biological systems. Also, pick up Bart Ehrman’s books and maybe learn a few things about the religion you espouse to serve as an apologist for. There are many more exciting books to choose from, but those will give you a start into the current state of research into the topics you seem to show an interest in.
And another thing: If there is no evidence for something, that doesn’t mean that the default position is your world-view. I wrote in my previous comment: “In my view the worst trespasses against progress and common sense that Christian apologists commit are arguments from ignorance (“I just can’t see how that could be true…”) and that they assume that if there’s one tiny fact out of place, then the default position goes back to “My Version of Christian Dogma””. This is the same mistake the silly guys at the Discovery Institute made with “irreducable complexity” – a joke that ended up backfiring on them in the Dover School Board trial.
Science does not deal with the supernatural. Science requires evidence. Up to now, there has been no evidence (bible stories alone do not constitute evidence) for anything supernatural. What might’ve been considered supernatural in the past, has also now been explained as having natural causes (e.g. earth quakes, floods, lightning, waking up from a coma, etc.)
As Richard Feynman put it: “Religion is a culture of faith. Science is a culture of doubt.” Really, the two don’t share any common ground unless the religious attempt to push their beliefs into the realm of science, where they have always – without fail – been proven completely and utterly wrong. The Catholic Church learned this a long time ago – for the most part except for the condom issue – because Galileo burned them on their geocentric view. Fundamentalist Protestants (their ilk thrive where I grew up) still have to learn that yet. Science does what it does without religion. That doesn’t mean that scientists aren’t religious, but they’re smart enough not to mix the two. Take on science and the evidence will overwhelm you. Stay in your corner with your ignorance and science will leave you alone, that is until you need surgery, a vaccination, clean energy, or even a new kitchen appliance, then it will come to your aid without asking questions about your faith.
Regards,
Christopher
Last night I was at Jehovah’s Witness friend’s house for supper. Staying with my friend was another friend named Tony whom we hadn’t seen for a year or so. During our visit Tony’s wife phoned from their home 800 miles away. Julia is from Russia and is a converted Muslim to Christianity. Julia wanted to speak with me as she has a Christian friend she wants me to meet someday. Since I had only met Julia on the phone the previous day she wanted to know more about my beliefs and my thinking, I suppose to prescreen my character for her Christian friend. Julia was set back when she found out I was not a Christian even though I had been baptized a Catholic and brought up as one for many years. My hereditary background is mainly Irish, Iroquois and Cree Native. So things got interesting after that as Julia is a serious student of Christianity and homeschool’s their son also. Julia was quite irritated that I did not believe in Jesus Christ, or so she thought. After much ranting, raving and calling me a smartass she finally caught on when I for the third time told her that Jesus is a hero of mine. Silence, well at least for a moment or two. So the thing I brought up during my brief response is that Jesus and I have one thing in common, we are both non Christians as Jesus was a devout Jew and I strongly relate to my North American native heritage and beliefs. In order to link back to my sentiments, please read and discover the “Trail of Tears”, the story of how white men in the early United States rounded up 17,000 people of the Cherokee Nation, stole their rich and fertile native land so white settlers including Christians could take that land for themselves. The Cherokee were driven like cattle across middle America during winter months. Four thousand poor, confused souls perished because of starvation, sickness and sometimes murder by the American soldiers.
Anyway, to all of you who read this, there are other very deserving beliefs that are not Christian centered that resonate as strong and true as any in the Holy Bible. Best Regards, CanadaNorth
CanadaNorth,
I agree entirely. The message Jesus is written to have preached, is in most cases admirable, although not one bit of it was original. The self-centered arrogance evidenced by most Christians is appalling. They have a repugnant attitude, which reflects their view of the rest of humanity, best and most succinctly expressed by Jerry Falwell: “If you’re not a born again Christian, you’re a failure as a human being.” I like Christopher Hitchens’ response about Falwell’s death: “If he’d been given an enema before his funeral, they could’ve buried him in a matchbox.” He was full of arrogance and full of bull—-, too, and he’s not alone.
Regards,
Christopher
Anthony. I am from the UK so the history of America and those terrible times are not as raw as they must be to a native of the states. I remember reading a small booklet touching on some of the events from those times and it said ‘If the red Indian is a savage it’s because the white man made him a savage’. I also remember the Black Hills betrayal where the agreement to vest that land in the native Indian wasn’t worth the paper it was printed on when white man discovered gold there. It’s fitting for people today to reflect on the misery and sacrifice of our forebears so that we enjoy what we experience today.
Perry. Where does Adam and Eve fit in with human evolution? I think there is a fairly credible phylogeny of homo sapiens from very elementary primates. Did Adam and Eve actually exist or are they symbolic?
Also I don’t understand the idea that Jesus died for our sins i.e. that after his death we were forgiven. Why didn’t God just forgive us? Why did God insist on a terrible sacrifice before He forgave us. Just wondering.
I interpret Genesis as meaning that when “God breathed the breath of life and the man became a living being” a likely interpretation is: God gave a man-like creature a spirit. I think Adam and Eve really existed and God put them in a real garden.
God cannot just forgive us because all of us intuitively know that evil has REAL cost. If Jesus has to pay nothing then evil is free. If however Jesus paid a real price then we are indebted to Him more than anyone else, and the cycle of retribution stops.
Martin – Please see my reply to Perry’s last comment.
Anthony. Let’s get one thing clear, I am not a Christian aplogist, a theist or any other kind of believer. I am concerned that my post reflects that. I have said previously that I am merely asking questions based on the evidence as I see it. I would certainly never embrace theism purely on the basis of scripture because I am very much a pragmatist and would never be swayed purely by writings from a more primitive age. They would support my view if I decided God existed but my decision would rest purely on the ‘scientific’ evidence as I see it or from divine revelation, but I am not holding my breath in that respect.
I have read Dawkins and many works by theist and atheist scientists over the years so although I am not a scientist I consider myself well informed.
Have you read Perry’s other website Cosmic Fingerprints? Perry goes into the scientific aspect of this subject exhaustively. Have you studied the process of transcription and the complexity involved in DNA replication and coding? If an atheist scientist can describe how that came about purely naturally I would love to hear it. Of course, it may have arisen naturalistically because there could be deep laws of which we know nothing, hence my questioning. But where are those laws? The early proponents of ‘Darwinism’ and mechanistic processes lived in the scientific dark ages. They had no idea of the workings inside cells or that DNA even existed yet 21st century naturalists still cling dogmatically to the early hypothesis of accidental changes in genetic material and their selection if beneficial i.e. mutation and natural selection. The literature you mention does not prove there is no intelligence in the universe, most of what I have read, learned though it is, is merely hand waving. Convincing hypotheses concerning abiogenesis don’t exist. Hand waving inanimate inorganic chemistry into complex highly specific biological systems is not a scientific theory and actually betrays scientific ideology not support it.
We all know that there is no hard and fast evidence that supports unequivocally that all this came about with or without intelligence. If there were we wouldn’t be writing in this blog. It would be cut and dried. So it’s all a case of subjective views based on the evidence we have. Theism, intelligent design etc. is an alternative hypothesis. If you look at mind-boggling biological structures, processes and systems and seemingly purposeful co-evolution of independent parts as non-intelligent then that’s how you see it. You can see it that way if you want. When I look at it I think maybe there is intelligence behind it all. That view is certainly not an ignorant view as you suggest. Many scientists and philosophers are questioning this. The last book I read was by Antony Flew the philosopher and lifetime atheist. He now questions the naturalistic view, not based on some woolly emotional thinking but from deep analysis from a well respected and learned philosopher. As I have said previously, many who scoff at the possibility of intelligence behind life do so because they cannot imagine an intelligent supernatural explanation. I agree it’s beyond our imaginations but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true. I also feel a purely naturalistic explanation is beyond our imaginations, hence this debate.
Dear bloggers,
Big Bang- BB, was the starting point for everything, was it?. That happened 14,5B years ago. Life appeared on earth about 3,5B years ago and humanity just 6M years back. Did the Creator come back twice;to start Life on earth and though DNA and then back again to create manhood? A question; When the Creator gave us DNA, at BB or 11B years after that or just 6M years ago? Do we have DNA since what is written in Genesis or the Creator had to come back to create all living things billions years after He “finished” His universe work or even more when Man appeared on planet earth? In all cases if we look into a mirror- we are a whole different species, evolution had to be taken place in order for us to be here.
I need some clear and deep help from you guys if you kindly send your comments in. Let’s start from the beginning.Thanks
Christopher, sorry I addressed my last comment to Anthony by mistake.
Martin, thanks for the correction to both Christopher and myself (Anthony). Martin I think we are getting somewhere. I like your responses because they are more than well thought out, Christopher’s and Bill’s also. Interestingly enough, you mention Darwin coming from a time when cell structure and DNA were unknown. I too have had those same thoughts, but also those thoughts relate to how the early Christians were thinking too, I.E., without the benefit of these tools. Is our thinking actually evolving as more discoveries become available? Of course it is. This is why both Darwin and the early Religionists could not be entirely correct. We cannot be entirely correct now either. So how did people of past cultures come up with their ideas and beliefs? How did early medicine men and early doctors come up with cures for known diseases at the time? How did engineers, lawyers, agrologists and other professions come up with their respective knowledge bases? There are two ways that knowledge came about in times past, observance plus trial and error. All cultures practised this until the best possible answers that could be had for their time and place were formulated. Now observance and testing has accelerated rapidly with the advent of the new scientific tools such as electron microscopes and computers able to “crunch” huge databases of zeros and ones. In other words there is no comparison between yesteryear and right now. The same will be happen ten years from now. Having said this, in a few short years, the Bible and Darwin’s thoughts will become closer together and the new knowledge will become further apart from these two older beliefs. Interestingly, both Biblical philosophy and the Darwin philosophy are the roots of the new, newer and neweat thinking and discoveries. Best Regards to all, Anthony Waters, aka, CanadaNorth
Hello Perry; my friend; Nice hearing from you again!
I apologize for being so late in responding but I am in the middle of some very interesting things that I’m really not at liberty to speak of at this point in time, so I can’t seem to find enough hours in a day to be able to play catch-up…
I read your letter and I found some of what you wrote very interesting, however I personally don‘t believe in Christmas, because no one knows when Jesus was born, and from what meager evidence I’m able to garner, that‘s because it‘s supposed to be that way, because our Lord G-d works with us in “Secret“ and in secret He came into this world as a thief in the night. Matthew 6:6
In a humble manner, in a humble place, without pomp and ceremony, a King was born unto us, Emmanuel Amen, Thank You Lord Jesus!
I especially liked the Thomas Friedman McDonalds theory of world peace quote.
It just goes to show you that “Big Corporate Entities” rule the world and it’s politics.
In the first place, this ?war? is a farce, instituted by the very ones who lie and say they are for “Peace & democracy” and are busy fighting “Terrorists” who are attempting to destroy that “Rule of Law democracy” in lieu of some “radical religion“. It took them over a year to figure out how to call the “Enemy”… and all they could come up with was… “Terrorist” … Heck, even an old fuddy duddy like me could be a terror if I wanted to, and if I can, so can any man, woman or child.
Anyways, In doing so, they then go deep into CIA covert Psycops/Blackops;
aka ( Coalition Forces’ & Corporate Securities Inc. run by Joe Citizen the Corporate head. One of which was called Blackwater, but is now known as Xe Services, however there are many other “War Mongers“ available to choose from to farm our US governments military tasks out to. )
Going Psycops/Blackops they can claim “National Security” for anything they might get caught at, i.e. http://tinyurl.com/ydxrxd4 … and are very busy breaking those very same laws they say they are fighting to preserve, while appearing at the same time, that they are abiding by the rules that are agreed upon by all who are for “them“. Those who oppose “them“, are then considered “Enemies“ and will be hunted down and ???
I am a vet; 1955-59 USN 7th fleet, 77th taskforce.
Am I talking about my country, the United States of America? Tsk, tsk, shame, shame.
You then go on to say;
“Can you imagine, say, the US going to war with Australia?
Think of all the emails the senators and congressmen would get: “
From my recent experience, that doesn’t do a “thing” to get anything done.
I tried to save a mans life a couple of months ago, ( Bob Boyce.) calling on both reps here in my state of Idaho, congressman Simpson “Simpelton” and senator “Crappo”, and Crapo say’s this on his website;
“Almost 2,000 Idahoans write, call, fax or e-mail me each week with their thoughts on issues before Congress and the country. Although responding accurately and in a timely fashion is a monumental challenge and can lead to unexpected delays, I try to reply to your questions as promptly as possible.”
Blah, blah, blah, Apparently his name speaks for itself! ;o)
Political correctness at work, with a ready made excuse why he isn’t going to respond if your query is too politically sensitive. Anyway they both completely ignored my pleas and now the guy is dying because no one would offer any assistance, not even send me back a simple courteous letter of “receipt or acknowledgment“.
So much for senators & congressmen helping anyone but “Big Corporate Entities.”
Duhhh… You ain’t got no name?… duhhh You Kant play da game!
Here’s an example of “Corporate” strength. Book a future flight on some airlines, on anyone you choose, then pay cash or debit, next thing to do is to try and to get your money back, because things had changed and you no longer can take that particular flight. They will not give you your money back, however, if you had paid for it with a credit card, they most assuredly will refund you your ticket fare. Why? Because “Big Corporate” bank systems are in back of your purchases.
This country used to be a Republic of “We the People” of these United States of America, one nation, indivisible under G-d, however winning both fronts in the second world war made us rich and powerful and there are wealthy groups of people as well as their family heirs, who got made what they are today by WWII, and the multitude of nasty little wars that has since followed, and are now busy attempting to change this United States of America status, into the “Corporate States of America”. Actually selling arms and financing “WARS”. For what? “Energy!” [ Corporate Big Oil ]
If I’m not mistaken I think our late president John F. Kennedy said as much in a speech he once made. He said there was a wealthy group of individuals who are attempting to take over this government and bring about a new order. ( can’t bring it all to memory it was quite a while ago, but I still remember him saying that much personally.) The CIA goes way back about it’s being a scary instrument, even in Truman’s time he remarked how it’s been changed into something it was not meant to be, and he even publicly aired his views on the subject through the media back then. I’m not going to quote all of these things or offer links to back up what I am saying, as I am just saying all of this more or less as an impromptu dialog, merely attempting to politely respond to your most candid and refreshing views about these days we find ourselves living in. So I’m relying solely on my personal memory.
However, I think I pretty much responded to your political philosophy concerning our current US Government senators and congressmen’s honor, decency and integrity, as being somewhat lacking in ingenuous public displays lately. Like the “Honest” lawyer, who’s never been seen in court. Or at least that’s my personal view of them, just “Feral Gooberment” ex-corporate lawyer drones, sucking up our tax monies, writing inane laws that do nothing but encumber the taxpayers, saying “It’s for the good of the people!”
Yeah, right!
They are supposed to reiterate what “We the People” say to our president, not put their words into the mouths of “We the People.” But they do anyway.
I would like to know who Wilson was referring to that day when he burst out with that now infamous saying; “You Lie!” I mean, he was in a whole building full of politicians wasn’t he?
Cheer up my friend, better days just ahead.
These present day wars we are having to deal with, are nothing more than Hollywood’s version of “Wag the Dog” come to life, my poor bereaved friends.
This whole war scenario is all about “ENERGY.”
Energy is a political tool.
The energy mongers that rule the people in their areas of this planet, control the fees for their services through individual metering of the energy the so called community grids provide their captive customers with.
Same thing with “Corporate Big Oil”… they know that generating electricity by using simple electrolysis of water, and chemically changing it into electrical energy, is happening as you are reading this reply. They don’t want the public to know it, so they are very busy subtly prevaricating through as many means as money can buy, trying to say that in fact it’s all hogwash… etc. However it’s very difficult to hide a light that’s shining in the dark, as the “Hydroxy” fans are quick to show you on YouTube.
Just search; “Hydroxy”
These mechanical energy devises are now being made by individuals in the USA and other countries in their own privet homes and businesses. I made one myself in the confines of my own living room, just to show you how simple it is. And I’m an old man of 72.
There is no religious war, and never was… it’s all about bin Laden, he was a CIA agent during the Soviet era and still is. He is doing his part by causing this ruse, a religious war as you are now witnessing in the world to date, while the ones here in the states that were the insiders who allowed the WTC & building 7, to be laid with their collective explosive charges are doing their part by buying up all corporate entities like the “News Medias“ as well as “Financial“ institutions, as history will back me up on. Now, ask yourself this question… who has the monetary resources and political clout sufficient to be able to pull this off?
Our Republic of “We the People of the United States of America” are in real danger of our country, the United States of America, becoming the “Corporate States of America” or aka… the New World Order, under corporate rule! All because they control all the ENERGY.
What if everyone had the ability to generate all the electrical energy they needed in their homes, and vehicles, as well as at the factories doing nothing more than generating hydrogen from a simple electrolyses device that uses nothing more than saltwater? ( Which they do!) No one would need to buy their energy from someone else any longer, and that in turn would free up everyone from the big energy mongers of the world, including the fossil fuel industries, “BIG OIL”, as well as do away with the excuse for wanting to build nuclear reactors for the production of electrical energy… No more Nukes! who needs them???
The people of the world have to wake up, according to the stars, this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius, hydrogen is a for real gift from G-d, I suggest we thank Him and start using it… how about you?
CARPE DIEM – Japan is not procrastinating one bit… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWhHCGlv9r8
Finally! This technology is becoming High School curriculum…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGLJ5J5i0Yk&feature=related
This is great, it means “BIG CORPORATE OIL” and the other energy mongers are soon going to have to look for alternative employment…bye bye Edison Electric co. and the others like you … and “NO MORE NUKES!!!” … ;o)
G-d bless you Perry, in everything “Good” you endeavor.
PS, I think the computer histology went like this… Printing_press_Typewriter_Telegraph/Telephone_radio_RADAR_Microwave_Television_Keyboard/Monitor_Computer. And I believe our Lord has His hand in it’s development as Genesis and some other scriptures, defiantly has a code that only today’s computer technology could sort out, that is for the exception of a few dedicated Jewish Rabbi scholars who managed to do so, through spiritual inspiration from our Lord G-ds own directives. And I believe our Lord Jesus alludes to such in this parable; Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Thank You Lord Jesus!
Christopher – I have listened to Christopher Hitchens and most of what he says is just derision. He is a very eloquent speaker but as far as I have heard offers no scientifically based reasoning to support his atheism, just anti-religious rant, unlike Perry in his other website, and I might add the scientists of the Intelligent Design movement. If you read something like William Dembsky’s counter argument to Ken Miller’s proposal that the co-dependent molecular ingredients of complex structures in a cell already existed in other systems and geographical locations and ‘just happened to get together fortuitously’ to form completely different functioning systems, you will see Dembski is no head-in-the-clouds religious nut. Most double PhD alumni in science and philosophy usually have informed opinions. (notwithstanding Dembsky’s theistic and sometimes evangelical zeal). Curiously one might think, Hitchens’ brother Peter, a columnist and polemicist is a staunch Christian.
I also recall Steven Pinker’s comment when he was asked how he could explain subjective consciousness and he replied “It beats the heck out of me”.
Hi Bill,
Please note I was not the least bit offended by your comment in your previous post. You should read what the aggressive militant atheists on ‘about.com atheism’ have to say!!
You seem to look at these apparently unsolvable phenomena and shrug your shoulders in resignation. But that’s not what humanity is about. If it were then we would still be living in caves. Furthermore we would still think like the scientists of Darwin’s time that the ‘simple’ cell is made of a jelly-like protoplasm rather than what our labours have discovered i.e. rather it is a factory of such mind-boggling complexity of many components all working in synchrony towards a seemingly purposeful end and all synthesized and codified by another mind-boggling structure, DNA.
Why shouldn’t we strive to discover whether it all happened by accident or part of a divine purpose? I am just asking questions in the face of what seems so staggering and unbelievable.
Martin – listening to sermons of the religious community, one cannot come to any other conclusion that some members of the human species are indeed, still living in caves.
High time that the Rt Rev Fred Flintstone & followers wielded the shovels & dug themselves out of the Stone Age.
They’re all very reluctant to accept that their silly beliefs are of a past age & just cannot take it in. Man’s natural search for truth has rendered belief in a definable God as pure self-evident fantasy.
Now I recognize that you’re asking sensible questions but you also seem to have a definite inclination to believe that the ultimate individual building block of this Stupendous Creation will eventually be found.
We just have to bear with the thought that, frustrating though it may be, as a product of that Creation, the understanding of it ALL is well out of reach. For me, that is not a cave-dweller’s conclusion, Merely recognition of pure fact as we know it to be, using the common sense gifted by nature.
Of course, Man will pursue all avenues to try & comprehend as much as possible. Darwin’s contribution was a big step in a continuing story. My ‘belief’ that there is a limit to our grasp of the ultimate is far more authentic than the ‘belief’ in some pure, fictitious, Divine, Almighty Being. Transcendental thought is open for everyone. We must appreciate it as such.
The mind is capable of ANY illusion.
Remember the 2 trees? at the begining of this story to which christ plays too? It is the evolution of knowledge thru us, mankind, that will set us humbly free, from death, seting the stage for eternity.
Bill – It might be that although we learn more and more about the complexity of life we will never know whether it all happened by accident or supernaturally. Some will look at it all and see ‘design’ others will see natural processes. I think it’s obvious from your words that the idea of a supernatural creator is totally and utterly beyond your comprehension, imagination etc. The thought demands so much of credulity that it is no more than fantasy. That also applies to me. I feel the same but there is a tiny compartment in my mind that has reservations. The reason is that all the arguments and debates by philosophers and scientists who think there might be a supernatural explanation are more convincing or at least more interesting that those from the other camp. When you think of great minds like Einstein, Stephen Hawking and the like, if they believed nature and the universe etc. suggested a supernatural explanation then there could be something in it. We carry little snipets of information but they see the whole picture with the benefit of their vast knowledge. I recently read Anthony Flew’s last book ‘There is a God – How the world’s most notorious atheist changed his mind’. Flew was a staunch atheist all his life and wrote copiously about it. It’s very interesting as he tells you about his early life in Oxford and his meetings at the Socratic Club and the debates. A lifetime of atheism and he explains why he now believes there could be a supernatural explanation. Is Flew a head-in-the-clouds Bible pushing dreamer, a religious nut? I am prepared to be open minded about it, just because I can’t possibly imagine a God or whatever doesn’t mean it’s not true. You could say at least there is circumstantial evidence for it.
Martin – It should go without saying that we just do not know or are ever likely to know how this awesome set-up came about, or if, indeed, it has ALWAYS existed.
I’ve stated many times before, as one of the products of it, it’s most unlikely that we, Humanity, will ever be able to grasp the total reality of it all.
You have a lingering belief that there is hope of our eventually getting to grips with it. Certainly, when the elements of my puny brain are about to go in the recycling bin of nature, it will still be as ignorant as ever it was.
You harbour the same thoughts as any person with a serious interest in the subject but this we must realise – consciousness is a total mystery – spirituality is born of the latter. Delving into such matters are just mind games.
The gifted persons you mention must have arrived at a similar conclusion. At the peak of their investigations, they could do no more than we can, speculate.
Afraid I’ve never indulged myself with the philosophy of the great names you mention & the name Flew has not registered with me at all.
“The Universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, – no design – no purpose – no evil – no good – Nothing but blind pitiless indifference”
I pride myself that I had come to that same conclusion long before I read it in Dawkin’s literature.
You think as I do, & probably most do, but my estimation of getting at the truth of it all is so minimal, it’s just not worth an argument.
However, that will not stop us from trying. We will be eternally curious.
Dear Perry,
It is been a month or more that I am receiving emails from you. And it was because of my fading faith in God that I subscribed to your articles. Hoping that I could find solid answers to my questions and get myself back in the path I was walking before. I made attempts to express my ideas on atheist forums such as this one : http://tipidpc.com/viewtopic.php?tid=173836 and several times used your arguments. I do have great desire to learn more on both sides to avoid being one-sided but my life is so hectic at the moment.
Well I just want to take this opportunity to express my whole heart gratitude to you, for devoting your time and effort on sending these precious emails. It moved me oftentimes to tears as my heart loves to serve our loving and wonderful God. Again, thank you so much and may our God bless you and your family.
Christian love,
reward a.k.a Draw
PS I wish you could reply to my email personally and not in this thread. I am looking where to email you this but failed so I just posted it here as a comment. Regards!