7 Great Lies of Organized Religion – Lie #8
Where I grew up, they said: “Miracles don’t happen anymore. They ceased with the disciples.” I believed what they told me.
Dozens of personal experiences and medically documented cases have caused me to do a 180 on this. Miracles are REAL. The idea that miracles are fake is literally the 8th lie of Organized Religion. (Fake miracles masquerading as real ones are the other side of that coin, by the way… and there are many fake miracles.)
Miracles are far more common than many would have you believe. Today, I share several of my own personal experiences. And several thoroughly documented events.
Before we dig in, I need to tell you a conversation with my younger brother Bryan, whose story I tell in my book Evolution 2.0 and on my site www.cosmicfingerprints.com.
Bryan had gotten a Master’s Degree in Theology at Master’s Seminary in Southern California. Master’s is very conservative and holds a doctrinal position that miracles ceased after the disciples. He’d spent time in the ministry including a stint as a missionary. Because of mounting doubts, he was bailing on the whole thing.
He says to me:
“Perry, I’ve studied the New Testament inside and out. I’ve studied Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. And you know what? There is NOTHING in the Bible whatsoever to suggest that miracles should stop.
“So… WHERE’S THE MIRACLES???”
I rifle through my mental file folders. I’ve heard lots of stories 3rd hand. No personal experiences of my own to report.
(Gulp.)
He continues: “Every single supposed ‘miracle’ can be explained by sleight of hand, placebo effect, or wishful thinking. There’s no such thing as a medically documented miracle.”
He was definitely right about the New Testament part. Nowhere is there so much as a hint that the miracles were going to go away. In fact miracles are held out as proof of the authenticity of Jesus as the Son of God. From healing the paralytic to forgiving sins to feeding the 5000 to rising from the dead, all are offered as things only God can do.
I was quite concerned that he was right about the placebo effect and the wishful thinking. Made me queasy.
Felt like a sucker. A mark. Gullible.
Plus, when you turn on the TV and see the faith healers plying their trade, most of us run out of the room screaming. Educated people are way too smart for that, right?
What if all this stuff about miracles is hocus-pocus and Santa Claus? What an icky, shameful feeling.
My eyes were suddenly wide open for information that would either confirm or deny this.
For several months I was almost persuaded that he might be right.
But little by little things started happening. The evidence began to point the other way.
Experience #1: I had lunch near Cincinnati Ohio with an old co-worker named Charlie Keck. September 27, 2002. Charlie was an engineer who lived in Tipp City Ohio. His wife was named Geri, and she’d had lupus.
She’d *had* lupus. But she didn’t have it anymore.
She and Charlie had treated it for years, prayed for years that it would be healed, and it wouldn’t budge.
Then one morning at her Bible study, a woman suddenly stood up and said, “God just told me to pray for you, to be healed, RIGHT NOW.”
So they did. And Geri felt this warm sensation flushing through her abdomen and the lupus was healed. Just like that. No more doctor visits, no more treatments. The whole chronic disease, gone.
Experience #2: I got to Rajahmundry, India in June 2007 with the customer service manager at my company, Jeremy Flanagan. Jeremy, as it turns out, has been having experiences like this himself. Healing people.
At a church service one Sunday, the pastor, Isaiah Gottimukkala, invites anybody who wants any kind of healing prayer to line up in front of Jeremy. Jeremy calls me over to help him and we start prayin’ for people.
One woman, maybe 60 years old, had fallen a year ago and hurt her arm. She could not raise her elbow past the middle of her chest. When she moved her arm up and down she complained that her shoulder would crack and pop and Jeremy and I could feel that too, when we put our hands on her shoulder when she’d move it.
He started praying for her. Probably spent 15 minutes. By the time Jeremy was done both shoulders felt identical, there was no cracking and she could raise her arm above her head on her own strength.
I asked her to do it for me and I snapped a picture. She said it didn’t hurt anymore and both arms were equally good.
Another lady, Mary, maybe 30 years old, had somewhat recently had brain surgery to remove a cancerous tumor. She pulled her hair back and I could tell just brushing my hand over her head that there was a big piece of her skull taken out and a large indention on her head.
She complained that she’d been having seizures since the operation, and she has had no feeling anywhere in her left arm.
Jeremy started praying that God would heal her entire skull and put everything back. We prayed for her and prayed for her. After about a half hour her head hadn’t changed but she started feeling tingling on her skin and by the time we were done, she said she could feel everything with her left arm exactly like her right arm.
No success on her skull filling in. Not yet anyway. But she was VERY excited about the feeling come back in her left arm!
We go home, and 2 months later I email Pastor Isaiah’s brother, Ananth. I want to know if these people are “still healed.” (Or did the problems come back? It sometimes happens.) Here’s his reply:
Respected Mr. Perry Marshall,
Greetings from India!
Thank you very much for your prayers.
Your trip to India was amazing. Many were healed and increased their faith in God. They are sharing their testimony to many people. Many times they are asking about you and Mr. Jeremy for prayers. We told them that next year definitely they will come to pray for you and for many.
I would like to share the testimony of my Grand mother(My father’s mother). Her name is Mrs. Suvarthamma and her age is 75. She was suffering from severe headache and neck pain from so many years and also if she takes anything from her mouth she will be feeling pain in her throat.
After your prayers She is completely healed. She is very happy and doing all the works easily irrespecitve of her age. God did miracle in her life through your prayers.
Another women named Mrs. Mary, Her age is 30. She had operation on her head. Hair was fully sworn and the head was like smooth sponge. She used to have pain on her head daily. and also her hand is not working and she doesnt have any feeling on her hand.
After your prayers she bacame healed. She feels her hand and she can do works with that hand normally as another hand. Praise the Lord.
Every one hearing of her witness, asking us about you and requesting us to bring you back to India.
These are some of the Miracles happend because of your prayers.
My brother Pastor Isaiah and his wife Surekha and all the boys of the Rajah Boys Home and Pastors in the Deep Forest are sending their greetings to you.
Thanking you Sir,
Yours faithfully,
Ananth
I’ve told you about two people there in Rajahmundry India. There were many more – most got some benefit, some didn’t seem to get any. These are the most dramatic examples of what happened. But I’ll tell you one thing: I learned that prayer CHANGES things. Especially when administered the way the apostles always said to.
I fully understand that a lot of people reading this are very, very skeptical.
As well you should be.
After all, you weren’t there, were you? No you weren’t. You only have my word to go on.
Well, I forgot to bring my portable MRI machine on the plane so I could do before / after scans of all these people, and as concerns this particular event, my own eyewitness testimony is about as good as I can provide right here.
If you’ll stick with me, later in this article I’ll give you information on publicly documented miracles that you can investigate for yourself. Meanwhile I’ve got more personal experiences to share.
Todd Bentley: A crazy, controversial guy, but some of his miracles were real.
Experience #3: In the spring of 2008 a “revival” broke out in Lakeland Florida. Hugely controversial. A guy named Todd Bentley, a Canadian Harley-riding preacher guy with jeans and cowboy boots and covered with tattoos started healing people in this crazy tent meeting.
It grew and grew until 5,000 to 10,000 people were showing up every single night. This went on until August 2008. The whole thing caved in when Bentley was found to be having an affair with one of his staff members.
(Hey, I told you this thing was controversial. Wait, there’s more…)
I jumped on a plane and flew there to see the whole thing for myself. I was there May 27, 2008.
On the hotel shuttle bus to the meeting I met a woman from Hong Kong who had flown to London to pick up her daughter, a college student who had severe Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. The daughter was skinny as a rail and looked like the walking dead. They were there to get healing.
I get there and the whole place is a freaking nuthouse. Loud music, crazy people dancing and singing, and rolling around on the floor. This Todd Bentley guy is marching around the stage, shouting, kicking people, slapping them, proclaiming them healed.
Across the stage the people go. Bentley is yelling all kinds of proclamations. At one point he stops and says:
“I’m telling you right now, somebody in here has been deaf in one ear for 34 years. Who is that? Thirty-four years deaf. The Lord just spoke to me. Come up here.”
I’m in the center section near the back. About 20 feet from me, over my shoulder and to the right, a guy raises his hand. “That’s me. I went deaf from a gunshot 34 years ago today.”
Bentley prays for him and he’s healed, instantly. You can watch this in this video:
The man’s name was Brian Burgee. He’s pastor of Rock Church of Tampa Bay.
Brian’s story was reported in the Charlotte Observer on June 19, 2008. You can read it here.
I met Charles Chandler, the reporter who wrote it. We have a mutual friend who lives in North Carolina. Chandler followed up with the people described in the article personally and checked their stories.
I was there that night. I saw it happen with my own two eyes.
This article is referenced on Wikipedia. My neighbor is the editor in charge of the Todd Bentley page on Wikipedia. The healings in Lakeland were such a hot potato, most of the mainstream media wouldn’t touch it.
When people are really getting healed and things are happening that the establishment claims are impossible, mostly what you get is silence. Or irrational protests from people who still insist it’s impossible.
(Not all that different from atheists trying to tell me DNA isn’t actually a code.)
Jeronimo and Noemia Cessito, Beira, Mozambique
Experience #4: I have a friend named Noemia Cessito. She and her husband Jeronimo run a school, church, AIDS hospice, medical clinic and feeding program in Beira, Mozambique. I went to visit them in the summer of 2003.
Mozambique is extremely poor. Luxuries that westerners take for granted are simply unheard of there.
Noemia tells this strange story:
When I arrived in Mozambique in 1984, the country was in the middle of a 15 year civil war. It was a hard time. A lot of people were dying not just from the fighting but from starvation.
One evening our church met for prayer. People started to pray for things like shoes, a chair, a shirt, a loaf of bread. I never heard anyone pray for a pair of shoes or a loaf of bread before. I had always prayed: “Lord, please provide for my needs.”
So, I was sitting beside this little six year old girl and we divided into pairs to pray. That little girl began to pray, “Oh God, give shoes to my brother, Carlos. Oh, God, give some some bread to my sister Maria. And I said “Amen” to each of her requests.
Later at home, I got down on my knees to pray some more and when I was kneeling, I was trying to pray for the war because I had heard about a terrible battle on the Zamebezi river.
In the middle of thinking about that, I got this desire for some ice cream. I thought, “Good Lord! How could I possibly think about ice cream now when there is so much war and starvation?” But yet, deep in my heart, I heard a voice saying, “Ask for some ice cream from God.”
I ignored the thought. How could I possibly ask for ice cream when so many people are starving and are in so much need? I continued to pray. But my mouth started to water because I so wanted to have some ice cream. And then I began to cry. I didn’t have the courage to say, “God, please give me some ice cream.” I knew that I could, but I didn’t have the courage.
But, then at the end of my prayer, I said to God, “God, I would sure love to taste some ice cream.” And then, I cried some more. I thought, how selfish can I be! There are so many suffering and starving. I was crying because I was homesick for Brazil, and I so wanted a taste of ice cream.
About noon the next day a truck from Zimbabwe drove up to the door where I was staying and the driver got out and knocked. He wanted someone named, Naomi. I didn’t understand English at that time but he kept saying Naomi, Naomi and I finally realized that Naomi must be my name in English.
So I took the package and when I touched it my heart froze. I knew right away what it was because the box was cold.
So I asked the driver, “Who sent this? Where did it come from?” He didn’t understand me but finally through gestures I got out of him that someone at the airport gave him that box to deliver to “Naomi.” It had been flown in on a plane from South Africa. To this day I have no idea who sent it or where it came from.
Well, I put that little carton of ice cream in the freezer of the refrigerator with a sense of overwhelming gratitude. It was then that I began to understand that I can ask from God even the most insignificant things.
Since then I’ve faced a lot of hard times. I’ve nearly died of malaria, and I’ve gone hungry. But, as the many difficulties arose, I would remember that carton of ice cream. It’s the biggest lesson of my life.
Experience #5: I’ve got a friend named Jess Smiley. She and her husband Sam live about 2 miles from my house. We go to church together.
Jess feels the sorrow, but sings anyway
The last 7 years have been HARD on Jess.
7 years ago her husband Jamie contracted leukemia, a form that is lethal. After a 2 year battle she lost him.
In the fall of 2007 her son Alex was 11 years old. He had started developing bruises on his skin and a doctor’s appointment revealed that he too had leukemia.
Wow. An 11 year old boy with leukemia. Imagine facing that.
Alex went through 9 months of brutal chemotherapy treatments and it went into remission.
18 months later, it came back. With a vengeance.
More chemotherapy. More prayers. More desperation.
Alex chose to stand up and FIGHT.
Since Alex was losing his hair, several of his friends, including Dylan Fancher, all decided to shave their heads as a sign of Solidarity with Alex during his healing and recovery process.
Below is a video of Alex shaving Dylan’s head in the restroom of Alex’s hospital room:
Alex Smiley shaves Dylan Fancher’s head: Solidarity, and Friends Forever
Just the day before, Alex had begun his Chemo treatments. (The joy of shaving Dylan’s head sorta made up for the first day of chemo.)
That was July 6, 2009.
On Wednesday, October 14, 2009, an infection raged out of control and Alex died. A young man full of promise, gone at age 13.
Jess had remarried since Jamie’s death. She lost both her husband and first-born son to leukemia.
She made it through Alex’s funeral under the care of friends, lots of prayer and a couple pints of vodka.
Words cannot express how grieved we all were. We all prayed so hard. For Alex to be healed. For this curse to be lifted. But Alex lost the battle. For whatever reason, rescue did not come.
Jess soldiered on.
It just so happens that we were with Jess at a church conference in Toronto. On the night of January 20, 2010, God SPOKE to Jess and in a moment of laser clarity, showing her that He was pushing a “reset” button on the destiny she thought she had lost. He was restoring to her what she thought was no more.
That night God also gave her an impartation of JOY and LAUGHTER.
The bitterness and the grief melted away and she began laughing with delight. For weeks she was almost giddy and exuberant.
It was like nothing I had ever seen.
All I can say is, you had to see it for yourself to fully appreciate it. I’ve told you some miracle stories. People getting healed of lupus, deafness and paralysis are all remarkable. But being healed from aching loss and sickening sorrow over a lost husband and dear son – that one takes the cake.
It’s not that she doesn’t miss Alex or Jamie. Or that she doesn’t still grieve. It’s just that the bitter sting has been taken out. Jess experienced a literal impartation of the beautiful scripture of Isaiah 61:
For those who grieve in Zion— to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the LORD for the display of his splendor.
They will rebuild the ancient ruins and restore the places long devastated; they will renew the ruined cities that have been devastated for generations.
My friend, I do not know why Alex and her husband were taken from us. God alone knows the answer to that question.
But God did minister to her in her sorrow in a most profound way.
YOU have also lost loved ones.
YOU have also had unanswered prayers. We all have. I know the feeling of exasperation and desperation when you pray and it feels as though those prayers are bouncing off the ceiling.
Jess Smiley knows that feeling too. Believe me, she does.
You pray for the uncle or aunt or grandpa or child. Your prayer doesn’t get answered the way you want it to. It’s bitter and dark.
But you know what…
You only have to experience ONE undeniable miracle and then you KNOW. After that, there is no going back.
And that’s what happened to me. I’ve only shared a small collection of stories. There are others. They’re real and I’ve seen them with my own two eyes.
Experience #6: 0n April 17, 2012, I was at a conference in Moravian Falls, North Carolina, sitting right next to a woman named Dierdre from Sydney Australia when she was healed after 40 years of severe hearing loss in one ear. Here’s me interviewing her about what happened:
Remember Brian Burgee from Tampa Florida, above, who was deaf in one ear and was healed in 2008? With the Dierdre experience I have now seen TWO people who were healed from deafness in one ear, both from childhood accidents, both deaf in that ear for more than 30 years. I was a personal direct witness and I have both testimonies on video. Recall that Burgee’s healing was also verified by reporter from the Charlotte Observer.
I solemnly attest to you that all these people and experiences are true and I have reported them to the best of my ability.
I will never again be at the mercy of theories from someone who thinks miracles are fake. Cuz I know they’re real.
But they are my experiences not yours.
Do you want God to show up in your life?
Then right now I give you permission to ASK HIM. If you seek God you will find Him.
But there’s something else I wish to offer you as well.
And that is:
Documented evidence of other miracles.
1. The book “Real Miracles” by Richard Casdorph, M.D., medically documents 10 miracles. Each chapter is a case study of one miracle, including doctors reports, xrays, etc. It reports ailments like huge tumors, Multiple Sclerosis and cancer vanishing completely, with medical documentation.
If you’re the least bit curious about this, just go ahead and buy the book. It’s on Amazon.
2. In Catholic circles, the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima on October 13, 1917 is very well known and has been exhaustively documented. Literally 70,000 people including all kinds of newspaper reporters and people of every age and background testified to what happened near Fatima, Portugal. The event was predicted in advance on July 13, August 19 and September 13 that same year by three children. Which is why thousands of people were there to witness it.
Wikipedia does a good job of summarizing what happened. (Yes, I understand, if you’re a protestant you probably don’t relate to the “Virgin Mary” stuff. That’s OK. There’s no rule that says you have to.) I encourage you to study the event for yourself and see if there isn’t substantial evidence that something miraculous occurred.
3. In September 2010, the Southern Medical Journal published an article titled: Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Proximal Intercessory Prayer (STEPP) on Auditory and Visual Impairments in Rural Mozambique. The official publication can be found here and the original authored manuscript from Indiana University can be found here. 24 people were tested; hearing of deaf subjects improved by 10-60 decibels. Vision of some of the blind subjects also improved, ranging from none to 15X.
I am personally only 1 degree of separation from the healers involved in this study. Here in Chicago I have some friends Nathan and Liz Stanton. They were married in Mozambique by pastor Heidi Baker who is a missionary there. For the Southern Medical Journal research, Heidi Baker partnered with Global Awakening in Mechanicsburg Pennsylvania, who sent a teaching team to my own church not long ago.
Heidi Baker is well-known in Mozambique for going into villages, asking villagers to bring her their deaf, then healing them. At minute 5:56 you’ll see Heidi Baker heal a deaf woman in front of a large crowd of people, live:
This video is an excerpt from the movie Finger of God. by Darren Wilson. He’s the narrator of this documentary. I’m personally acquainted with him, having met him in November 2009. Darren himself was ardently against miracles until a relative experienced a miracle he could not explain, which launched him on a journey of investigation.
4. On Friday August 30 2010, Delia Knox was healed after two decades of paralysis. She stood up in her wheelchair in the Mobile Alabama Convention Center and walked around the room in the presence of thousands of eyewitnesses.
The following report appeared in the Mobile Alabama Press-Register, September 2, 2010:
MOBILE, Alabama — On Christmas Day 1987 singer and evangelist Delia Knox lost the use of her legs after a car she was a passenger in was struck by another vehicle driven by a drunken driver.
Now, on a video made last Friday, Knox is seen walking for the first time in 22 years during a revival at the Arthur R. Outlaw Mobile Convention Center.
The video, which is on YouTube and on the site of the Mobile church run by Knox and her husband, Levy Knox, is said to be a testament to not one, but numerous miracles said to have taken place during the Bay of the Holy Spirit Revival.
You can watch the YouTube video of the live healing taking place here:
On Thursday October 21, 2010, Delia Knox returned to her home town of Buffalo, New York and into her mother’s arms. The local TV station WIVB Channel 4 taped the homecoming and reported the healing:
Delia Knox and her husband Levy, next to her wheelchair
Finally there are some things that need to be said about miracles. Quoting 1 Corinthians 12:28:
“And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
“Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? But eagerly desire the greater gifts.”
If you’re a Christian, I challenge you with this:
Most of the church, the protestant church in particular, has been actively disobeying this command. These verses clearly present a hierarchy of authority and gifts:
1. Apostles
2. Prophets
3. Teachers
4. Workers of Miracles
5. Healers
6. Helpers
7. Administrators
8. Those who speak in tongues
The protestant church has amputated #1, #2, #4, #5 and #8. The teachers and administrators have been left in charge.
Paul said to desire the greater gifts.
The church has been banning them.
I know pastors and seminary professors who’ve been fired from their jobs because they believed in miracles. How tragic and anti-Christian that is. I have a friend who had severe ADHD and was deaf in one ear. He was healed of both at once in May 2007. He won’t let me use his name and picture here on my blog because his father is a prominent figure in evangelical Christianity and news of a miracles might threaten his dad’s career.
And we wonder why the church is anemic??? We wonder why there’s an atheistic bias in the western world? It’s no surprise church has become a flaccid, legalistic, boring institution. A dreary way to kill an otherwise enjoyable Sunday morning.
It’s because 5 out of the 8 spark plugs have been yanked out. The engine is coughing and sputtering on 3 of its 8 cylinders.
Why are “Cessationist” arguments invariably so complex and insert all kinds of assumptions which themselves have no scriptural support?
MANY Christians say to me, “Absolutely I believe God still heals. God can do anything He wants to. God just does it whenever he chooses to now. He doesn’t heal through healers.”
If that’s you, I’ve got a question for you:
Can you show me ONE place in scripture – Old or New Testament – where ANY person was healed without a healer?
Cessationists often say “The gifts were only present for the apostolic age – a short, special period of time to validate the apostles so they could finish writing the scriptures.” Where did they get that?
The Bible never says anything of the sort. When Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14 “Earnestly desire the greater gifts”, was he only talking to apostles?
Cessationists are often skilled rigorous expositors of scripture, but the cessationist arguments don’t meet their own standards of interpretation.
The church has sliced off one of its testicles and thrown it in the garbage. No wonder it doesn’t feel like a man.
This is one of the reasons that TV healing ministries have become such a circus: it’s partly because most of Christianity has marginalized the healing gifts. This is why some healers are charlatans. But it’s a whole different world when you see people whom you’ve known for years get healed in person, with your own eyes – not on TV. When you experience it for yourself, like I have.
My friend, let me assure you: When the church begins to operate on all 8 cylinders, it becomes a force to be reckoned with. As all my friends who’ve been healed will attest. The atheists and cynics and religious gestapo can whine and moan all they want to, but real people are being set free every day.
(Oh, and I haven’t said a single word about the awesome power of prophetic people. I’ll save that discussion for another post.)
You’re invited. If you’re ever in Chicago, come to Greater Chicago Church, 705 Jackson Boulevard, Oak Park Illinois on a Sunday morning and I’ll introduce you to some of these dear friends. They’ll look you in the eye and tell you their stories and you’ll know it’s all for real. If you need healing, they’ll pray for ya, too.
The same thing is happening in every city and town in the world. It’s seldom in the newspaper or on TV. But maybe that’s for the better. Cuz it’s going on just the same.
In Matthew 11, Jesus’ cousin John the Baptist was in prison. He was depressed and discouraged. Nothing was going the way he’d planned. He had grave doubts because his prayers weren’t being answered.
John sent a message to Jesus.
When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples to ask him, “Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?”
Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me.”
Amen.
Perry Marshall
P.S.: There’s a popular atheist jingoism these days: “Why doesn’t God heal amputees?” It’s often stated with spitting anger and venom. The assertion is made that there’s no such thing as an amputee whose arm grew back. This held up as proof positive that miracles don’t exist.
To date I haven’t personally met an amputee whose arm has grown back. Today I told you what I have seen. The closest I’ve come is my friend Yosef Bender from Chicago. Yosef was at a Kathryn Kuhlman healing service many years ago. (Casdorph’s book “Real Miracles” investigates 10 of Ms. Kuhlman’s healing incidents.) Behind Yosef was a woman who had one arm that was too short with a single finger at the end instead of a hand.
From the stage, Kuhlman called out that there was someone up in that section whose arm was deformed. A few seconds later, Yosef heard this intense commotion and loud crying behind him. He turned around and this woman’s hand had fully grown back. She was so happy she was crying hysterically.
This is as close as I’ve personally gotten to a healed amputee.
Documented histories of healed amputees do exist. The Miracle of Calanda occurred in Calanda, Spain in 1640, according to 17th century documents. The documents state that a young farmer’s leg was restored to him after having been amputated two and a half years earlier. This event is described in detail in the book Il Miracolo by Vittorio Messori. This is described in detail on Wikipedia.
I rather suspect there are at least a few healed amputees out there. Will the skeptics listen to their stories? I don’t know. Will they change the skeptics’ minds? I don’t know. But if you want to think for yourself investigate these things on your own, I recommend that you start by reading “Real Miracles” by Richard Casdorph, M.D.
Perry, thanks for writing this.
Miracles definitely still happen, but I don’t expect everyone to believe it.
I’ve personally prayed for my 1 year old son and watched his fever break instantly. I took his temperature before and after.
The only problem though is that when some people get sick – they only look for a miracle.
However, when I got sick, I prayed for a miracle, but instead of a instant healing, God led me to some information and once I applied this information my high blood pressure, out of control blood sugar, dizziness, headaches, joint aches, beeping noise in my ear, fainting, fatigue and constipation all went away in a few days!
I believe God chose to lead me to information because he said that His people are destroyed by a lack of knowledge and now I’ve been helping others get their healing doing the same thing I learned.
And I also appreciate your gentleness in your responses even while people try to insult your intelligence. The people Jesus came to help are who turned on Him also.
Shalom Perry in the precious name of Yahshua (our Lord Jesus Christ),
I have esteemed you as preacher of the Truth for a while now and have also grappled with the issue of healing.
I am all for, as you say, “The Unvarnished Truth About Religion, Christianity and Spirituality in 2010”
You are right in saying miracles still occur, but in most cases, these go unpublished. The FALSE prophets are the ones who have many followers and are broadcast far and wide.
I guess we all show our true colours eventually.
Must say, I was EXTREMELY disappointed to read that you support such prophets of the “other jesus” mentioned in 2Corinthians 11:2-5,such prophets as Kathryn Kuhlmann and Todd Bentley.
Before you cast aside my comments as heretical, I BEG you to consider the following information and realise that WE, in 2010 live in the very last days, when DECEPTION is the rule rather than the exception and APOSTASY is more common than members of the True Church and Bride of Christ.
Yahshua tells us, “Many will come to Me in that day saying, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, heal in your name and perform all kinds of miracles in your name?’ Then He will tell them plainly, ‘depart from Me your workers of lawlessness for I never knew you.'”
I pray that you receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit (the True one and not the bogus one)so that He may become your Teacher when you will not need a man to teach you.
Please respond to my comments as I am very concerned about what is going on in Jesus’ name these days and the ETERNAL consequences.
Love and Peace (Not “World-Peace”)
Anna
Anna,
Just because Jesus said in the last days these things would happen, doesn’t mean everyone who heals is a false prophet. Just because people have large audiences does not make them false prophets.
I think you need to be VERY circumspect about making accusations against others. Especially if you do not know them. You must be very careful not to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. I suspect it is more dangerous to accuse God’s work as being of Satan that it is to mislabel Satan’s work as God’s.
Jesus said those words in Matthew 7 at the end of the Sermon on the Mount. That chapter starts with a warning about judging others.
Jesus said the wheat and the tares would grow up together, and that He would sort them out.
I discern as best I can who is true and who is false. I am fallible. I can make mistakes. There are many ministries I have grave questions about. But I hope that I speak respectfully to all.
Shalom dear Sir,
Thank you for your reply and comments.
The Moderator of this forum appears to consider that my tone is “respectful” as questions/comments must be so in order to be published and this one was.
As far as I can discern also, my previous comments are with utmost respect but even if they were’t, how are you going to reconcile certain comments by 1. John the Babptist (“You brood of vipers, who warned you to escape from the wrath to come?”) 2. Jesus (“It is not proper to give the children’s food to the dogs [to a woman who came to him for help!) 3. The apostle Paul to Simon the sorcerer (“You servant of the devil…”
And if you dare to have a really honest look at John 8 and in particular verse 31 where Jesus says to “those who believed in him” – “Your father is the devil.”
Yes, I am afraid that this false jesus has been so UNIVERSALLY accepted that the true Jesus’ words ring in my ears to the point of tears, “Not one of those invited guests will get a taste of mhy banquet.”
The Word is not called the sword of Truth for nothing. We are either transformed into the likeness of Christ or we transform Christ into our likenss.
I am not saying these things to be hateful at all, but to alert you to the INCREDIBLE deception going on in Jesus’ name as revealed to me through the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit.
Have you actually had a look at the link I previously posted about Randy Clarke?
If you are not aware already, in English, we use only one word for “judge”. However, in the original Greek of the NT there are at least TWO. One means to discern and decide right from wrong. The other means to CONDEMN and say someone is going to Heaven or hell. It is THIS word used in Matthew 7.
But “FIST REMOVE THE LOG from your own eye (this log is poor vision due to not even operating in the Spirit of Truth/being born again – yet attemtpting to correct others)THEN YOU ARE ABLE TO SEE CLEARLY IN ORDER TO REMOVE THE SPECK FROM YOUR BROTHERS EYE.” (speck indicates issues of right and wrong)
“BABYLON THE GREAT IS FALLEN! IS FALLEN! COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!”
Love and Peace in Yahshua (Not “World-Peace”)
Anna
Putting Kuhlman and Bentley in the same box, are you mad? Kathryn was a loving, sensitive, respectful person, who made sure miracles were verified before she would ever air them on her program. You need discernment despereately, Anna. Yes, Bentley is a false revivalist and was used to lead many into deception but Kathryn Kuhlman was as kosher as the Word of God.
God Bless U,
Perry,
You responded to my lament at having Lupus with a verse Isa 34: 1-3. Umm, Ok, before I got sick, the Lord impressed these verse to me to hold on to with no understanding. That was 11 years ago.
Wow.
Nice to meet you. One of the problems I have with 3rd wave saints is, well, I was worshipping God when one of our local Foursquare more-spiritual-than-thou woman came up behind me and began to try and cast demons out of me. God told her to. Really. I assured her I am not demon possessed but she had a word from God and persisted.
Oh sure, I could have slapped her silly but I was in front of the church and the whole incident was embaressing. I turned the other Lupus diseased cheek and walked away.
It is a dangerous thing to admit to depression or disease or want around these blind zealots because they immediately start pointing out the sin, improper word confession and demons in your life, real or not.
Sigh.
Whatever happened to loving the brethern? Faith works by love. I am beginning to believe that our lack of miracles in our American churches has less to do with a lack of faith and more to do with a lack of genuine agape love.
Thanks,
Bryan Hupperts
Bryan,
I’m delighted that this scripture hit home with you. I felt impressed to share it. I think this is a major highlighted scripture for the church in 2010. Grab onto it.
I don’t know you and I have no idea what issues you could possibly have. Let’s say for the sake of discussion that you did have some kind of dark oppression you were struggling against. And let’s say that she had a prophetic gift that was able to discern that.
The prophetic is never supposed to be used in the church to humiliate. She should have talked with you privately, and under church authority.
I pray for your healing. God is up to something.
Perry
To whom it may concern-
Things happen with remarkable consistency in this world. Every disease, including even cancer, has a survival rate somewhere between 5-95%. People who think God had anything to do, as in a miracle, with someone’s life or death are just confusing probability with “God’s will”. This is arrogant as can be, and reminds me of the “faith-healers” who can MIRACULOUSLY cure all sorts of things that are without a doubt psychosomatic in nature. If you want to believe that it is a miracle that has been awarded to you by God, feel free. It is certainly your right to believe that you are special, and that God has personally helped YOU, over all of the other people praying for the same or similar results who did not get the good news and help you did. Please! How can a person wanting to be “good” believe such a thing? A real miracle? Never. Want to prove me wrong? Everybody reading this start praying for someone who lost their leg in Iraq to grow a new one. I mean, THAT would be a miracle. And, after all, God could do that, right? Of course he could. But he won’t. How fair would that be to all the legs NOT grown back? It wouldn’t. People who believe in miracles are just like the folks who believe in ghosts, UFOs, talking to dead people, psychics, palm readers, Scientology, etc. They’re wishing for specialness, or at least special knowledge that most of us don’t deserve. Most of them probably watch Fox News and believe that, also. So, there you go, Thnx 4 ur time.
Yours in health, and world peace-
Chris
Chris,
I think it’s rather interesting that all these particular friends of mine experienced immediate healing while they were being prayed for. Not, for instance, while they were eating sushi or changing the oil in their car.
If you choose not to believe anything I say – or if you choose not to investigate the documented miracles I refer to in this article – that is your decision.
Dude, listen to yourself! All of the miracles that these same people, and others, had occur were happenstance! Lots of “miracles” happen while NOT being prayed for and lots of those same people had NOTHING happen when praying for OTHER miracles! Your “God” is the belief in your own SPECIALNESS doubtless rooted in your own faith! Come on! It’s a self-proved faith! Try taking what God gave you and performing real miracles of kindness, selflessness, and love. For most of the folks reading this, that would be a real miracle. Oh, and I’m still waiting for the new leg!
Thnx again-
Chris
1 Corinthians 13 (New King James Version)
1 Corinthians 13
The Greatest Gift
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Footnotes:
Paul was the greatest Apostle that has ever lived, Paul is called the Chief Apostle, and said imitate me as I also of Christ, Paul taught the Christ Jesus of Heavenly Glory, not the Jesus the Christ of humility…
I would make sure I had my cap on strait, and get it correct!
1 Corinthians 13:3 NU-Text reads so I may boast.
a. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing…
Sumner Morrill Koch
celestials1938@msn.com
According the US government records The First Sumner Koch was born in 1888, and died at the age of 88. The second Sumner Koch was born in 1908 and died in 1880 the third Sumner Koch was born in 1938 and is presently 71 years of age.
My grand Mothjer was also born in 1888, and the first Mercedes Automobile was built in the USA 1888 and Mercedes means compassion.
1938 = 1+3= 4 (8888)
Your call.
by the way my Grand Mothers name was ELLA Mae Shelpman Koch born in 1888, and my GrandFathers name was Charles Fredrick Koch and had three Children one Girl and two boys and they had three boys and only one grandson was a Koch these are Grand dad Charly’s Angles.
Koch-1938
Shalom Sumner in the precious name of Yahshua (the Lord Jesus Christ)
Well, if it is my call then, first of all, you are not going to get to Heaven on your Grandmother’s apron strings – it needs to be your own personal, experiential knowledge of the One True God and Jesus Christ Whom He has sent. None of us will inherit salvation from our human ancestors.
Secondly, numerology is bordering on superstition which is of absolutely no consequence in the persuit of the Truth. If you are thinking of 666 in Revelation we are told to CALCULATE the number, which clearly does not mean a mathmatical calculation on a calculator to arive at a number for we have already been GIVEN the number. It is 666. The word “calculate” in Greek means for us to carefully discern, weigh up and deeply sense etc. In fact all digits ie: 600 and 60 and 6 have a rather interesting meaning and they are:
600 = Caesar = “severed”
1) the surname of Julius Caesar, which adopted by Octavius Augustus and his successors afterwards became a title, and was appropriated by the Roman emperors as part of their title
60 = Nero = “brave”
1) a famous but cruel emperor or Rome from 54 to 68 A.D.
6 = stigma
Thirdly, even if there are numeric “mysteries” in the Scriptures, it is writtten in the New Testament “Whoever goes beyond the teaching of Christ does not have God with him.” Therefore, if you can show me the supporting evidence that this 888 has any significance then you may feel safe in this assumption and convince me of the same.
As one who bears the testimony of Jesus, I advise you not to despise prophetic utterances. And I do not mean, “babble, babble babble, ha, ha ha”.
Love and Peace (Not “World-Peace”)
Anna
Another miracle to add to the list. And recent, no less!
Bronson Staker was found drowned in the bathtub on January 30, 2010. He was Dead on Arrival (DOA) when he got to the hospital. No brain waves. No heart beat.
God brought him back to life and little Bronson walked out of the hospital on February 13, 2010. Watch the video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfAKoFzYwzE
Ryan
Hello again Perry,
Thank you so very much for answering my question about reincarnation.When you said that Paul told us that there was an appointed time for man to die ONCE then jugdement.A Heavy burden was lifted from me. I have been struggling with this for quite sometime. Thank you so much, now may i please request a prayer from you that i will find the right church to attend. i pray and ask for God,s guidance.There are so many churches and they all believe different things.I believe there are good people in all churches, I also believe there are bad people in all churches.I leave that for God to judge.Iam happy to be included in your mailing list
God Bless You.
Ruby
Ruby,
You’ve got it. Study the scriptures and look for a church that lives them. It’s that simple. Ask the Holy Spirit to lead you and He will.
Would you please pray for Gods work in my life; to reenter and restore his works..those that I walked in prior to my experience walking through PTSD for the last 5-6 years.
Please pray as Holy Spirit directs..but that is my request. Thank you
Shalom dear Vivian in the precious name of Yahshua (The Lord Jesus Christ)
It would be an honour to pray for you this day but I first need to ask what PTSD stands for. Forgive my ignorance on this.
Please let me know.
Love and Peace (Not “World-Peace”)
Anna
Hi Anna,
not a problem.. :)
post traumatic stress disorder..= ptsd
Dear Perry:
A wonderful article! I intend to forward it to my friends and family. I would like to say that what is hidden is now going to be unveiled.The fullfilment of Scripture is at our doorstep.
God Bless you abundantly,
Ken
Massachusetts
I need to know that my process walking through PTSD experiences has not harmed my ability to hear Gods voice and feel Spirits leading..though I know I am not the same person I was prior.
Rest assured “Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God” remembering the “He that is in you is greater than he that is in the world”
The battle is the Lord’s who has been given ALL power over the enemy and so if God be for you, who can be against you?
My love, my heart is with you this day even though I still do not know what PTSD means, after reading “The Missionary Myth” I have a better understanding of the discernment tha Yahshua gave me the other day regarding this.
The Word says “Even the deepest darkness is as broad daylight to the Lord” and it won’t be long now when we all shall see His precious face when the things on earth will grow strangely dim.
“The Lord is close to the broken-hearted” and a “bent reed He shall not break and a smouldering flax He shall not quench.”
You are loved more than you know and please keep facing up to the Truth however grand or ugly it may be for “This reason I came into the world and for this purpose was I born. That I should testify to the Truth. All those on the side of Truth hear My Voice.”
Amen.
Love and Peace in Yahshua (Not “World-Peace”)
Anna
http://www.timetogetready.net/brochure/brochure.pdf
‘Blessed are the Pure in Heart for they shall see God’ Even the non-believing Pure in Heart also. For it is written ‘The Sun shines on the righteous and on the unrighteous’. Meaning that God loves everyone for God is LOVE.
Dear Robert,
Very perceptive.
BUT, a FEMALE goddess you will have (as will the rest of humanity in the end times. But…BEWARE!
http://www.timetogetready.net
Love and Peace (not “World-Peace”)
Anna
DON’T EXCHANGE ONE MISCOMCEPTION FOR ANOTHER MISCOMPCPTION,,
The Apostle Paul could do all those things reise tyj dead heal the sick or send a piece of cloth to one and that would do the trick in the first part of His ministry, that ehen he was separated sent the nations of the world, Those gifts ceased with excetionj of Faith, Hope and Love only remain, no miracles.
A Scriptural fact!
Believe it or not “TRUTH IS TRUTH”
So therefore you are also saying that administration, teaching, helps, discernment went away too. correct?
Also, please quote the full scripture passage you are referring to, in context.
Jesus also said “(future generations) will do these and greater things”. This promises that we will be able to even greater things than Jesus did. What teacher or parent wouldn’t want their students or children to do greater things than they could do?
It would be interesting to investigate the word “greater” in the Scripture above(which I have not done yet), but just a thought…
Yahshua also says, “The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.
It is ENOUGH for the disciple that he be AS his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more [shall they call] them of his household?”
How many modern-day Christians are willing to preach and “enjoy” THIS part of being LIKE their Master?
Love and Peace in Yahshua (not “World-Peace”)
Anna
To a student, his Teacher will always be greater than himself. But it is possible that a student would achieve greater things in his life, than his teacher. However, the Teacher also can take credit for his student’s achievements, if his teaching was responsible for his student’s performance.
Well said Anna, touche.
John 14 : 12 – International Standard Version (©2008)
“Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, the one who believes in me will also do what I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
But please also read
Mathew 7: 22
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'”
So, doing greater miracles than Jesus doesn’t necessarily mean that you are greater than Jesus.
Jesus, the Son of the ancient Jewish God Yahoo, is really just another idea of divinity. The ancient Pagans, for the most part had much the same mental disposition as the Ancient Jews. They practised most of the same sorts of things. Love Thy Neighbour, be charitable, help the sick, be good to strangers, and worship God, Creator of the universe. The only real difference was their version of divinity. The ancient Jews introduced the Levitical Code. Because their God was a Jealous God. Exodus 20.5.
This was the first code of religeous persecution ever seen among mankind.
It pronounced Idolatry to be a sin. Deut.
The penalty for this ‘sin’ is death.Deut.
The Pagans of this time where quite rightly astonished when people started to kill in the name of religeon.
The ancient Jews waged war in the name of their God.
The bible tells the story of the rise and fall of religeous fundamentalism of the ancient Jews. It appears to be a repeating cycle. We can see the same thing happening now in Islam. We, the non-believers, have the same mental disposition as the believer in any religeon. We simply have different beliefs about divinity.
This difference of opinion is considered evil by all the faiths that are based on the ancient God of the Jews, Yahoo, The Jealous God.
The believers of the ancient God of the Jews try to define Paganism as an evil religeon because of some of the rituals that where practiced in some places.
The ancient Jews themselves where not entirely free from things which where questionable. Abrahams attempted sacrifice of his own son. Jepthah’s daughter. The slaughter of the priests of Baal. Even the so called bloody sacrifice of Jesus of to his own Jealous Father.
A completely savage idea.
So, to be like The Master, one must be Jealous, Intolerent, and Bloodthirsty.
Exodus 20.5.
God is LOVE.
Rebort, the Son of Toogle, grew up to a clever logical and scientific man, but did not believe that he was fathered by Toogle. Many of the contemporary scientists and Nobel Prize winners had similar views because none of them could irrefutably or logically prove their filial relationship to their father, or device a repeatable experiment which would give repeated results to prove their sonhood. They practised most of the same sorts of things that other fathers taught their sons Love Thy Neighbour, be charitable, help the sick, be good to strangers, and worship God, Creator of the universe. The only real difference was their version of domestic rules. Unlike his neighbors, Toggle wouldn’t tolerate late night drunken revelry by his children and insisted they religiously attended school every day. (Because Toggle was a jealous father) Togodus 20.5.
Rebort however could not understand why he was denied the pleasures of late night drunken revelry, and looked for an opportunity to sneak out and freak out with the neighbours. Toggle however was much wiser ( after all he was his father), and easily recognised Rebort’s dis-comfort, and pronounced sneaking out in late night and drinking liquor to be a sin. Deut.
The penalty for this ’sin’ was that Rebort would be thrown out of the house if he returned home drunk after a late night party, and would be locked up with pigs in their sty.
The neighbors were quite astonished when they heard about this, especially when Toggle threatened them with serious consequences if they tried to seduce Rebort into participating in their revelry.
Toggle would go to any limit to keep his son Rebort out of reach of his neighbors..
Rebort and the revelling neighbors considered Toggle’s stand to be evil.
Toggle himself was not entirely free from freaking out on booze at home, which Rebort thought was questionable and A completely savage idea born out of Toggle’s jealousy seeing how much his son Rebort enjoyed rollicking with drunken daughters of his neighbors.
So Rebort chose to leave home for good, accusing his Father of being Jealous, Intolerent, and a selfish Drunkard.
Congratulations to Rebort.
Hi Sumner if you read the last chapter of the Old Testament you will see that the Bible promises us the Prophet Elijah to come just before the end and restore the gospel of the original believers and he will come with a ministry of healing.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
And in Matt. Jesus confirms it.
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.
And in Revelation the 7th Messenger is that Prophet.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
If this man that will come has the same spirit as Elijah he will do the same things (miracles) as Elijah did.
Look on this page what has been done and the world knew him not.
http://www.williambranham.com/
Now tell me if the days of miracles are over.
Regards
Chris
Eligah was a religeous fundamentalist. Not unlike the Islamist Fundamentalists we see in modern times trying to enforce their beliefs on others. They all believe in the same jealous God of Exodus 20.5.
Belief in this God allows the believer to behave in an inhumane way to those who do not believe the same things as they do. We can see examples of this happening today and also thru-out Christian history.The Inquistion.
Why should anyone fear a God of Love?
It is man we need to fear, espcialy those who believe in this Jealous God.
By the way, a God of Love could not choose one nation over another. That would only create division.
The God of Love surely seeks harmony for all people.
God is Love.
Truth is Truth?
Truth is surely verifiable. Once it is verifiable then it is Truth. Everything else is known as theory or idea. Your truth is not verifiable so therefore it is only a theory or idea. Just because many people believe something to be truth does not make it so. It is still only an idea. There are many different ideas about religeous Truth, just as there are many different branches of Christianity. The followers of the prophet Joseph Smith think that theirs is the irrefutable truth. As do the followers of the prophet Muhammad. Of course we all know that God says that He has sent strong delusions so as to mis-lead some people. I get the impresion that all believers of the different ‘faiths are the deluded ones. The Rationalists are the only people not apparently deluded. At least not in the religeous sense.
Perhaps we are supposed to use our God given rational minds to work it all out.
If your mother told you that you are really Robert Smith and not Robert Taylor, who should you believe? your mother, or Albert Einstein, or Pope, or Obama, or your family G.P?
What is TRUTH? Does the earth rotate or is the earth stationary and does the rest of the universe rotate in the opposite direction which results in a similar centrifugal force, or warping of the ether fabric? How can you find the exact location of an electron in an atom at 10 minutes past midnight tomorrow? How did three astrologers from the East find out that a King of Kings was born in Bethlehem? Why do electrons and positrons attract each other? I can ask a thousand and one questions for which we have no answers, and for which by the time one scientist gives a theory or explanation, another one is born who would challenge or improve or dis prove it.
If Truth is God the Father,
Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit, and
the Body of Truth is Jesus Christ.
we will be happy to see you coming in Rwanda, we are very happy to welcome you
2 Timothy 3 (King James Version)
2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their’s also was.
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works
1 Corinthians 13 (King James Version)
1 Corinthians 13
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1 Corinthians 13 (Amplified Bible)
1 Corinthians 13
1IF I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such [a]as is inspired by God’s love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2And if I have prophetic powers ([b]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), and understand all the secret truths and mysteries and possess all knowledge, and if I have [sufficient] faith so that I can remove mountains, but have not love (God’s love in me) I am nothing (a useless nobody).
3Even if I dole out all that I have [to the poor in providing] food, and if I surrender my body to be burned or [c] in order that I may glory, but have not love (God’s love in me), I gain nothing.
4Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.
5It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God’s love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
6It does not rejoice at injustice and unrighteousness, but rejoices when right and truth prevail.
7Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening].
8Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy ([d]the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].
9For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
10But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).
11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.
12For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as [e]in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand [f]fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been [g]fully and clearly known and understood [[h]by God].
13And so faith, hope, love abide [faith–conviction and belief respecting man’s relation to God and divine things; hope–joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation; love–true affection for God and man, growing out of God’s love for and in us], these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 13:1 Alexander Souter, Pocket Lexicon.
1 Corinthians 13:2 G. Abbott-Smith, Manual Greek Lexicon.
1 Corinthians 13:3 Some ancient manuscripts so read.
1 Corinthians 13:8 G. Abbott-Smith, Manual Greek Lexicon.
1 Corinthians 13:12 Marvin Vincent, Word Studies.
1 Corinthians 13:12 Marvin Vincent, Word Studies.
1 Corinthians 13:12 Marvin Vincent, Word Studies.
1 Corinthians 13:12 Matthew Henry, Commentary on the Holy Bible
I refer you to verse 10:
“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”
The perfect has not come. All the gifts are still with us. Teaching, administration, and helps. And yes, prophecy and healing.
I am not sure that i have faith on god, but i just want to be as good as any one can if possible then pray for me.
“Miracles ceased with the disciples.”
Disciples never ceased.
I like to consider myself as well as my brothers & sisters Christ’s disciples.
????
That which is perfect has not come? … “It is finished!”
Anna – I think you’re missing the context. “That which is perfect” is talking about the new body. Our current bodies are not perfect.
When Jesus said, “It is finished,” that did not mean all the things the Lord has planned are finished. It meant that the first work of Jesus was finished.
If you take the phrase too literally… then why did Jesus rise from the grave? Wasn’t it finished when He said it was finished?
Jesus has yet to perform a second work — and I believe we will witness it in this lifetime.
Ryan
Perhaps it is correct to understand things/’it’ as having been finished literally at the moment Jesus, God’s only child, died? The implications of seeing the story in this way are enormous. The nature of following his teachings and example changes completely, as does our understanding of the relationship we have with God, Jesus and each other.
The humanity of Jesus needs to be stressed in the present times. Thinking of him as an unconditional gift, as God’s potlatch if you like, an only son betrayed in full public view by his father, makes his sacrifice speak much more effectively.
If everything ended on Good Friday then how much more relevant might ‘the Church’/’Christianity’ become to people who are currently disaffected/dissatisfied with it? How much more effective would a wider commitment to following Jesus’ teachings and example to the letter be in making a case for Christianity? Why not take it ‘literally’ in that way; where it is most strong and compelling, rather than trying to ‘prove’ that Christianity is ‘right’ because miracles do, or in the case of the resurrection, did happen? We do not repay our debt to him and his father by defending supernatural beliefs, but through action, which is not to be motivated by threats or promises but the certainty of the truth of selflessness, freely giving and receiving through a process of mutual repentance and mutual forgiveness.
… “No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him“.
http://www.bluecrucifix.co.uk
Hi Duncan,
Maybe it was merely worded poorly, rather than an actual belief, but Jesus was not betrayed by His Father, in full public view or otherwise. Jesus was betrayed by men and killed by Man. He came intentionally to carry out His ultimate purpose here, which was to stand in for us to satisfy our legal condition in Gods’ universe.
You mentioned:
[Why not take it ‘literally’ in that way; where it is most strong and compelling, rather than trying to ‘prove’ that Christianity is ‘right’ because miracles do, or in the case of the resurrection, did happen? We do not repay our debt to him and his father by defending supernatural beliefs, but through action,…]
Well, firstly, Ryan was actually taking the verse literally, he was just also taking it in context. Maybe that was his choice of words, but his intent was not incorrect.
Secondly, if Jesus used miracles, then you can hardly criticise discussion of them. Did Jesus use them to prove Who He was? No, He didn’t, and I’ll certainly give you that. But the point I think some of you guys are missing, is that Jesus used miracles to show how we can live by faith, in relationship with and supported by our Heavenly Father. Miracles are evidence, not proof. Miracles are intended to trail faith, not the other way around.
And this being the case, if they were intended to stop with Jesus’ death, then why did He tease us with them, teaching about them and how to exercise your faith accordingly to receive them if they were simply to die out as soon as He died? Why did Jesus get frustrated with His disciples when they had trouble with exercising them without Him?
Thirdly, and most importantly, WE DO NOT REPAY OUR DEBT TO HIM at all, ever. We are saved by Grace, not by works. To repay Jesus for what He did for you, you would have to do something for Jesus of equal value to what He did for you. This is obviously not possible because of who you are, not because of what you cannot do. You could easily die for Jesus; many have and do. But the heart of man is inherently sinful, so without Jesus perfect sacrifice for you, you’re already legally on death row for your sins. Which in turn means your life is of little or no value for a sacrifice anyway, aside from redemption.
Please, don’t try and repay what Jesus has done for you, just accept it, love Him and thank Him for it. Living each day for Him is not about repaying Him, it’s about loving Him for Who He is and what He has done for us.
IJN,
Matt
Hi Matt (and Ryan)
Matt, you seem to believe that salvation is achieved by God’s grace alone and that this grace can only be attained through faith in Jesus Christ. It is not clear what your view is regarding those who have not had the opportunity to receive this grace. Can you give me a definition of this word grace?
Ryan, you seem to be in line with Matt here, except that you say that all are automatically saved whether they know it or not. Is that your meaning?
If I am reading you correctly, you believe in the doctrine of the atonement, an example of a belief that is, in my opinion, one to which Jesus would have been opposed. This is because it assumes that, as you put it: the heart of man is inherently sinful, so without Jesus (sic) perfect sacrifice for you, you’re already legally on death row for your sins.
I see very little in what Jesus is reported to have said or done to suggest that he thought that the heart of man is inherently sinful. In fact he appears to teach the opposite, in The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats and The Sermon on the Mount for example. Even in the canonical New Testament, which was written and later compiled by Christians, Jesus does not appear to be entirely perfect either. Furthermore, he makes a point of mixing with the dregs of society, prostitutes, lepers, women, children, beggars and so on. It is often such people who are the beneficiaries of his reported talent for miracle making. He often does this in order to make the so-called righteous people of his society look foolish.
One example of this is in the story of Jesus curing the blind beggar boy in John 9, where John uses the curing of the boy’s physical blindness to expose the spiritual blindness of the Pharisees. I won’t bore you with the details. I’m sure you already know the story.
Perry makes a good point about how the discovery of The Dead Sea Scrolls shows us how accurately the original words of many books of the Old and New Testaments were recorded and passed on. However, we can and should still ask about how the actual events of Jesus’ life and the nature of his teachings were passed on orally and, perhaps, in writing, between the time of his execution and the writing of Paul’s letters, the Gospels and Acts. That is, around 20 years.
There is a context that lies outside the Bible. It is not the Church or God, the context of a belief system that understands human beings as inherently sinful/evil/bad creatures… It is lived/living history. Indeed, it is possible to argue that Jesus himself operated within the context of such a heinous system of belief and that he fought against it. Didn’t the people ask about the reason why the beggar boy was blind? About if it was a punishment from God for him being legally on death row for (his) sins?
We could probably fill the whole Internet getting into a discussion about context. In the case of Christianity, we could consider the context and motivation of the writings of St. Paul and the context that his writings provided for the writing and reading of later New Testament writings and the ongoing evolution of Christian doctrine. We could also examine the social/historical and literary contexts from within which the individual Gospels were written and the significance of their similarities and differences in the light of this. In sum, we could talk about the delay, right up to today, of the parousia.
The main reason I turned to John 9 last night, was to illustrate a point about the context in which words are spoken, written and read. I shall refer to the RSV translation as it suits my purposes well in pondering one interesting context that is focused upon by John Louis Martyn in History and Theology in the Fourth Gospel.
John, writing in the early 2nd Century, deals with the delay of the parousia by having Jesus preach a realised eschatology, that is, there is no second work. For example, in John 9:4, Jesus says: “We must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world”. Jesus then duly performs the miracle and restores the boy’s sight. In John 9:22 the Pharisees quiz the boy’s parents but they are not prepared to answer for him: because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had already agreed that if any one should confess him to be Christ, he was to be put out of the synagogue.
To cut a long story short, and to stop this post from turning into a book, Martyn explains the significance of the realized eschatology, Jesus’ call to work and the mention of the ejection of Christians from the synagogue by showing that John was writing for a Christian community suffering from the after effects of the destruction of the temple by the Romans in 70 AD. Basically, John is not writing a biography, he is writing a handbook of encouragement for a group of fellow believers at the end of the 1st Century AD, at least 60 years after the execution of Jesus. He doesn’t talk about grace, he talks about works and WE are the ones who have to start working them. We could examine all the NT writings in such a manner, as many already have, and we would find similar contextual influences at work, helping to improve our understanding of them.
Grace, miracles, resurrection, atonement? These things are not from Jesus. They are early attempts to understand his example and to spread its message to others. I am not inherently sinful and neither is anybody else. Like Pelagius, I believe that humans are filled with innate goodness and as such are capable of achieving perfection in this life through their works. Jesus’ Kingdom may not be of this world but are we talking about the world in a physical or spiritual sense here?
Hey Duncan, I think you have missed the whole point of the written Bible. It is God’s True Word. If you are going to believe some things that Jesus said and did, you have to believe all of it, or none of it, for Jesus even validated the Old Testament scriptures, like God’s judgement with the Flood, Moses’ dealings with the Israelites. Christ claimed HE was with Moses! You are only one person with one opinion. What about all the other people with a different opinion or interpretation of the scriptures? Who is right? Someone has to be right! I trust God over man who was created by Him. I think every WORD He inspired was right! Why would a powerful loving God set forth His “Letter” to us to mix us up and trick us with a hard to interpret way for us to be reunited with Him? You take the Word literally, the only interpretation is the language it was written in. God protects His Word and His people! Thats not hard for Him. The Bible has survived everything else, so has the nation of Israel! When He said He sent His only begotten son to die for us and pay for our wages of sin, and arose from the grave, like we will, so that we could be with Him forever–only if we believe it, then that is what He meant! “No one comes to the Father, BUT BY ME!” So thats what that means, no other way! Especially not by works! Works is the outcome of salvation, not for earning salvation. Works after salvation shows faith, if we work to get to heaven, we do it for a selfish reason, so it doesn’t work! Completely different meaning to the words you are talking about. And besides, how do you know you’ve done enough works? When is enough good enough? Where does God tell you that? Read Ephesians 2.
Salvation from Jesus Christ is a GIFT from God! What do you think a gift is? If we have to earn it, it is NOT a gift. All we have to do is accept it! God doesn’t want everyone in heaven to be bragging on themselves that they did more than the other guy, and look what I have done, etc, etc! It wouldn’t be God’s heaven, now would it? It would be just like here again, living in the dirt! (the same with everyone unforgiven going to heaven, wouldn’t work)Thats why Jesus came to earth, to die, and to rise again, so that we would know God and His character and what He offered us for a gift of unspeakable love for us! So we could brag on Him, not ourselves. Sort of like giving is better than receiving kind of feeling!
There are only two religions in the world-the ones who preach DO, DO, DO, and be a slave to a demanding god to get to heaven, or the ONE who says it’s DONE for you! This is what Jesus was trying to tell the religious Pharasees! They were showing off their WORKS and making the people follow some 600 added rules that not even the leaders could follow! They were hypocrites! Jesus wants a RELATIONSHIP with you, He doesn’t want a religious robot! God wants righteous followers, not self-righteous followers! He wants a relationship, not a slave. Religions put you in bondage, Jesus sets you free! Jesus’ last words before He died were “It is finished” Jesus did it all! From Creation to Resurrection! It is DONE! (So is the written scriptures, they are done! We don’t need another prophet, or any continuations of scriptures)
Why do you think Jesus came to earth and why He died? I don’t see any other reason but what He said He came for! Believe me, it is worth being Martyred for! “If you die for ME, you will live, if you live for the world, you will die.” “Either you are for ME, or against ME.” Other words of Christ.
I choose Christ! I believe He died and rose again for me and is sitting on the right hand of God in heaven, a bridge for me to walk across, (a cross that fills the gap so a relationship with the Almighty has been acheived.) I choose the narrow way.
We do not get away with sin even here! We are judged and we are punished! That is if we have a fair and honest judge! Jesus is that fair and honest judge! If you deny His payment, then we have to pay for our own consequences. We are NEVER going to get away with sin! You will always pay the consequences sooner or later, Because God is HOLY! Not us! UNLESS, Christ has paid for them for you! And washed your sins in His blood. He is Israel’s blood atonement ONCE and FOR ALL! No more Jewish sacrifices are necessary! Praise God, I do not have to do that to be forgiven or to go to heaven! I do not even have to rely on my emotions! It is a promise well kept! I don’t even have to FEEL like I’m saved! It is WRITTEN in scripture and I believe God’s Word! WORD for WORD, from COVER to COVER! “Blessed are those who have NOT seen and still believe”
Thats the TIDINGS of Great JOY and where the PEACE beyond understanding comes from! The saving GRACE of Jesus Christ with His excruciating pain for me on the Cross! I can’t even comprehend how He could DO that for me!? But I trust Him and I believe Him, and I love Him for it, and am so thankful for it, and overwhelmed that He would love little ole sinful, dirty me, sooooo much!
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him (trusts Him with their life) will NOT parish but have everlasting life” This is WHY we live! This IS the whole message of the Bible!!! Spread the WORD, if you love ANYONE, it is the ONLY TRUTH there is out there!
Hi Cathy
You say that the Bible is the definitive word of God and that “you have to believe all of it, or none of it”. Do you mean that every single word of the Bible, in spite of its contradictions and inconsistencies, is absolutely true, or that a particular interpretation of how the New Testament fulfils the Old Testament is true?
I think you have missed the point of what I was trying to say. I will say it again: I am not an inherently bad person and neither is anybody else. The cross is not a bridge between a fictitious God and a supposedly lost, confused and sinful flock. To understand Jesus in this way, on top of an all or nothing approach to how people should interpret the Bible, is exactly the same as saying what the “religions … who preach DO, DO, DO” are saying, religions that enslave us to the idea of reward and punishment, exclusion and inclusion. Such a set of beliefs will produce nothing but the “hypocrites” and the “religious robot(s)” that you are talking about.
Where did I say that works was not the outcome of salvation? There are other ways of understanding the salvation that Jesus provides than a belief in the doctrine of the atonement. I will say it once more: I am not an inherently bad person and neither is anybody else.
You’ve probably got a different take on the following quote to mine, but I offer it as evidence of my own salvation, my own experience of a relationship with Jesus, albeit one that is mediated by John and the current social contexts through which we are all connected:
“The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not. He came to his own home, and his own people received him not. But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
And the word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. … And from his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.”
John 1:9-18
All fine and dandy saying all this stuff amongst believers. Believing in miracles and Jesus. You just get polite nods of agreement. Yep, we all believe.
With some small, minor dissagreements. We all believe.
But the miracles of Jesus are impossible to prove to be facts. To those who don’t believe. Those who don’t have faith. Those who only believe in facts. Those who consider themselves to be rational.Those who understand the difference between faith and fact.
Look it up in the dictionary. There are those who know and there are those who think they know.Those who know through using their rational mind and those who know through faith. Who has got it right?
Robert,
I think that even with rational thought there is a matter of faith to believe that something exists. The same is true with healings. I have seen people weeping because God has healed them from something that has been plaguing them for years and others around questioning if this person is telling a story. Its true that talking healing amongst believers is preaching to the choir, but thats why Jesus tells us to go out and do what he did. He even says that we will do greater things than he did (John 14:12). We are called to bring God’s power to the people who need it. Sometimes only an extremely personal encounter with the living God will make an impact.
Duncan:
You say, “If everything ended on Good Friday then how much more relevant might ‘the Church’/’Christianity’ become to people who are currently disaffected/dissatisfied with it?”
I may be missing your point, but I don’t think it makes church or Christianity any more relevant if we say “everything ended on Good Friday.”
Actually, I think that is cutting off the end of the story.
You say: “Thinking of him [Jesus] as an unconditional gift, as God’s potlatch if you like, an only son betrayed in full public view by his father, makes his sacrifice speak much more effectively.”
Well, Judas is the one who betrayed Jesus, not Jesus’s Father. Although Jesus death on the cross was part of the Father’s plan.
There are two words for God’s plan: “thelema” and “boulema.” Thelema is God’s stated will; boulema is God’s plan, which often involves evil.
FYI – God did create evil. Read Is. 45:7 in Young’s Literal translation.
Anyway, I think Jesus dying FOR THE WHOLE WORLD speaks more effectively than just about anything the church can come up with.
In fact, all will be saved through Jesus. Not one will be lost… not even the Prodigal Son! That’s the kind of God I serve. ;-)
Ryan Healy
What are miracles? Anything that cannot be understood or explained by human intellect are termed miracles, while things that have been studied, and documented, and whose outcome can be reasonably well predicted are termed “natural”.
Unlike magicians who use sleight of hand, or sorcerers who use occult and evil powers to show magic(k) to impress or “trick” their audience into believing in their superior powers and making money out of it, Jesus had no profit motive, when He performed miracles. There were no flashy clothes, or magic wands.
Jesus always performed miracles to help people in distress, who approached Him for help, believing in His Goodness, and His power to heal all ills, purely to display the Glory, Mercy, Compassion, and Greatness of His Father.
Jesus is the seed of God planted in this world. He is the vine, and wants all men to become his branches. He attracts good men to himself, through his deeds which are meant to display God’s goodness as well as His Power and Glory, because … “No man hath seen God at any time, except when His only begotten Son, hath declared him“.
Men who believe that Jesus is God’s only begotten Son, and become His branches, attain the same nature and power of the original vine, and will be able to perform whatever the original vine did, or even more if all of them work co-operating with each other as one body.
But some people seek miracles with a selfish motive and want to use them for attaining power and money. Seeking guidance from evil spirits, they seek the power for doing miracles to trick and trap others.
While the results of the good miracles are healing, peace, harmony,freedom, co-operation, deeper faith in God and eternal life, the outcome of an evil miracle will result in destruction, chaos, fear, entrapment, discord distrust and eventual death of the person seeking and believing in and following such evil powers.
That which is perfect is not come. That which is perfect is harmony. It is not yet come. Harmony comes through self control. Knowing thyself brings harmony. Understanding who you are. Why you think the things that you think. Your influences. Squaring the circle. It is not finished.
HI Anna,
PTSD is an acronym for post traumatic stress disorder..
Thank you for your reply; it helps me to relax a little more.I will continue to think about what you’ve said.